Future energy sources?

[tamada]

Strange, no official government statement (yet). The original comment I posted was lifted from LinkedIn.

[Sport]

This is not a pipe dream, its a wire dream. Will never get off the ground.

[Barney]

Strange, no official government statement (yet). The original comment I posted was lifted from LinkedIn.

Hers my straight from the horse mouth take in the Sun Cable power supply Darwin to Singapore project.
I pick up a lot of information during traffic control duties while my elbow is on the stop-go sign.

It all started in 2018 when Sun cables was formed. The dream of this project started not much late in 2019.
Mike Cameron Brooks was the first to dream then a much richer dreamer came along in the name of Twiggy Forrest. A rich person argument ensued as to who was going to win.
2021 a construction company was awarded development work to come along on the design and feed trail.
The original estimate in 2021 was 30 Billion bucks. Whatever the Albo govt says it will not be less.
The project is outside a little outback town called Elliot with a pub and some shops, less then 300 people.
The land was proposed on the "Newcastle Downs" cattle station and was going to require 12,000 hectares, about 30,000 acres of spinifex covered land just for the solar panels.
Sun Cables, Im told on the grape vine has collapsed and was, according to the last road train to pass me, was under bid for a sale.
There are also still negotiations with Indonesia to complete as the undersea line passes through their territorial waters. Everyone, rightly so, will want a piece of the pie if it ever gets out of the oven.

How much Australian taxpayer money Albo is ready to throw at it is not in a budget estimate. Australians will ask what's in it for me with their own household power prices sky high and not coming down.

To my knowledge that battery storage has not been designed for that size of storage.

Best thing would be to build a Nuclear plant facility up there for a similar price and kill 2 birds with one stone by providing the Northern territory with power to increase industry and also give the Singaporeans what they crave, clean power instead of their gas fired power stations.

Tamada
Powell creek is not part of the scope area. Powell creek was part of the first 3000 Km overhead telegraph line up the centre of Aussie in the 1800's.

[tamada]

This is not a pipe dream, its a wire dream. Will never get off the ground.

But the federal government has already allegedly "greenlighted" it? Maybe the author of the article I linked to was being a bit over enthusiastic about the level of government interest?

To my knowledge that battery storage has not been designed for that size of storage.

Best thing would be to build a Nuclear plant facility up there for a similar price and kill 2 birds with one stone by providing the Northern territory with power to increase industry and also give the Singaporeans what they crave, clean power instead of their gas fired power stations.

Powell creek is not part of the scope area. Powell creek was part of the first 3000 Km overhead telegraph line up the centre of Aussie in the 1800's.

Good info Barney, thanks.

As you say, the battery tech is either nascent or doesn't exist and certainly not at that scale. I agree that a smally nuclear power station would be far, far more practical and far, far cheaper.

Powell Creek is referenced in the article I lifted from LinkedIn and was my only point of reference when searching for the information that ultimately popped up. Maybe it is someone's idea if drumming up another "richer dreamer"?

I posted the link referencing the telegraph as it's an interesting bit of history that I was unaware of. Maybe the cable company 'investors' mentioned it for its historical relevance (and assist with a Google search)?

[Doodoo]

https://spectra.mhi.com/6-reasons-why-h ... 8ecd4112d9

HYDROGEN IS THE WAY

[tamada]

https://spectra.mhi.com/6-reasons-why-h ... 8ecd4112d9

HYDROGEN IS THE WAY

What are the problems with green hydrogen?

1. Green hydrogen is expensive to produce.
2. It requires more energy than other fuels to produce any kind of hydrogen, green in particular.
3. Hydrogen is extremely volatile and flammable.
4. Hydrogen is difficult to both store and transport

The potential is undeniably there, but it looks like very, very early days.

https://www.prysmian.com/en/insight/tel ... s-and-cons.

NB: This invocation of the Dunning-Kruger effect is brought to you by Google.

[AlexO]

Best thing would be to build a Nuclear plant facility up there for a similar price and kill 2 birds with one stone by providing the Northern territory with power to increase industry and also give the Singaporeans what they crave, clean power instead of their gas fired power stations.

Best comment seen on subject for a long time.
Thanks Barney.

[tamada]

The link below will take you to a potted history, by a respected industry peer, of energy derived from coal, oil and gas and the emergence of wind and solar renewables. It even touches on AI and how it may leverage the migration away from fossil fuels. Hydrogen gets a passing mention but, notably, nuclear doesn't.

https://anzmex.org/energy-matters-vol-5 ... y-matters/

[jackspratt]

LOL.

https://x.com/AustralianLabor/status/18 ... 4137661494

[AlexO]

LOL.

https://x.com/AustralianLabor/status/18 ... 4137661494

Australian Labor. Recognised worldwide for their expertise on Nuclear Energy and many other things as well, just nothing else springs to mind just now.

[Doodoo]

What are the problems with green hydrogen?

1. Green hydrogen is expensive to produce. What hydrocarbon isnt expensive
The European Union plans to scale up renewable hydrogen projects and invest a cumulative amount of 470 billion euros ($740 billion) by 2050.

In November, Western Australian mining magnate Andrew Forrest announced plans to invest billions of dollars in green hydrogen to grow his new energy business.

2. It requires more energy than other fuels to produce any kind of hydrogen, green in particular. ok but thats not stopping investment

3. Hydrogen is extremely volatile and flammable. What hydrocarbon isnt

4. Hydrogen is difficult to both store and transport The storage and transportation facilities are in place already

[AlexO]

What are the problems with green hydrogen?

1. Green hydrogen is expensive to produce. What hydrocarbon isnt expensive
The European Union plans to scale up renewable hydrogen projects and invest a cumulative amount of 470 billion euros ($740 billion) by 2050.

In November, Western Australian mining magnate Andrew Forrest announced plans to invest billions of dollars in green hydrogen to grow his new energy business.

2. It requires more energy than other fuels to produce any kind of hydrogen, green in particular. ok but thats not stopping investment

3. Hydrogen is extremely volatile and flammable. What hydrocarbon isnt

4. Hydrogen is difficult to both store and transport The storage and transportation facilities are in place already

It might be in the far future Doodoo just for now the only real 'dependable' clean source is Nuclear.

[Doodoo]

Best do some research first off.

"It might be in the far future Doodoo just for now the only real 'dependable' clean source is Nuclear."
Dont think so The first vehicle to operate using hydrogen was 217 years ago in 1807

"1802: Sir Humphry Davy, a British chemist, discovered a chemical reaction which produced (amongst other things) hydrogen, which kick-started the principles behind fuel cells.

1807: Swiss inventor Francois Isaac de Rivaz created a four-wheel vehicle which was powered by hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen gas was stored in a balloon, a very primitive (but effective!) form of fuel cell!

1839: Sir William R. Grove, a British lawyer, expanded on this work, creating a ‘gas battery’ – or in essence, creating a form of hydrogen fuel cell."

https://www.greencarfuture.com/misc/his ... e%20covers.

[Barney]

1807: Swiss inventor Francois Isaac de Rivaz created a four-wheel vehicle which was powered by hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen gas was stored in a balloon, a very primitive (but effective!) form of fuel cell!

There was a hydrogen filled balloon type invention that put that gas back a few decades of research, other than the investigation, think it was called the Hindenburg. Was not so much primitive but was effective for a number of years, parking at Friedrichshafen and flying around the globe, but one small spark and it was toast.
Admit it was not a fuel storage vessel but same principle.

[AlexO]

Best do some research first off.

"It might be in the far future Doodoo just for now the only real 'dependable' clean source is Nuclear."
Dont think so The first vehicle to operate using hydrogen was 217 years ago in 1807

Why don't we use green hydrogen?
There are two big reasons why green hydrogen, despite its impressively low emissions, is so rare today. First, the “electrolyzers” that split hydrogen from water are costly. And second, solar and wind can only run during certain times of day, which means those electrolyzers are not being used to their full capacity.

Your not the only one who uses the internet Doodoo.
Plus to be an effective source of power you need huge amounts of fresh water which is becoming in increasingly short supply.

[Doodoo]

Your not the only one who uses the internet Doodoo.
Plus to be an effective source of power you need huge amounts of fresh water which is becoming in increasingly short supply.
Fresh Water for what?

[AlexO]

Your not the only one who uses the internet Doodoo.
Plus to be an effective source of power you need huge amounts of fresh water which is becoming in increasingly short supply.
Fresh Water for what?

There are two big reasons why green hydrogen, despite its impressively low emissions, is so rare today. First, the “electrolyzers” that split hydrogen from water are costly. And second, solar and wind can only run during certain times of day, which means those electrolyzers are not being used to their full capacity.

Do some research Doodoo

[tamada]

What are the problems with green hydrogen?

1. Green hydrogen is expensive to produce. What hydrocarbon isnt expensive
The European Union plans to scale up renewable hydrogen projects and invest a cumulative amount of 470 billion euros ($740 billion) by 2050.
€470 billion is a disproportionately huge "investment"

In November, Western Australian mining magnate Andrew Forrest announced plans to invest billions of dollars in green hydrogen to grow his new energy business.
He is simply encouraging investors which should not he confused with endorsement of its long-term viability.

2. It requires more energy than other fuels to produce any kind of hydrogen, green in particular. ok but thats not stopping investment
It is certainly an impediment to many investors. €470 billion isn't chump change.

3. Hydrogen is extremely volatile and flammable. What hydrocarbon isn't.
Diesel? The volatility and flammability of hydrogen of any colour is much higher than fossil fuels.

4. Hydrogen is difficult to both store and transport The storage and transportation facilities are in place already.
Where? In any great scale?

There's no denying hydrogen will have its place in the churn on renewables, but it's far from being the "silver bullet" that investors like to portray it as being.

[AlexO]

Good post Tam.
Huge amounts of renewable power required to produce in any usable quantities of gas, huge amounts of scarce water. Then the storage and transportation requirements!
Can you just imagine the carnage if people carrying, hydrogen fuelled vehicles are allowed on the roads (accidents will take on a new meaning aka Hindenburg)
I honestly believe its just a pipedream with current technology available.

[Doodoo]

The dangers of carrying hydrogen on the roadways is no more dangerous than CNG which has been done for years or gasoline. Also propane another compressed gas is transported on the roadways today
For many years hydrogen has been stored as compressed gas or cryogenic liquid, and transported as such in cylinders, tubes, and cryogenic tanks for use in industry or as propellant in space programs.
It is no more dangerous than any other compressed gas/liquid, remember all the LNG plant we have built worldwide at cost of billions and billions of dollars. The last one I was on was a reported cost of 30 billion (I think it was slightly more)

Hydrogen will surpass electrical cars for sure.