Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

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Udon Map
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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 10, 2024, 7:43 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
June 10, 2024, 6:22 pm
It was 22 miles back in the seventies or so a Toronto website suggested. My mistake.
A mere typo.



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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm

Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 1:49 pm

When civilians are armed and holding hostages on behalf of a terrorist organization, hostages which were taken in a terrorist raid, even if they are holding the hostages in their home, they become combatants and legitimate targets.
I agree.

And the (reported) maybe 100+ or probably more, including many women and children who weren't Hamas, and who weren't armed and holding hostages - just more collateral damage?

Or open season?

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 10, 2024, 9:11 pm

jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 1:49 pm
When civilians are armed and holding hostages on behalf of a terrorist organization, hostages which were taken in a terrorist raid, even if they are holding the hostages in their home, they become combatants and legitimate targets.
I agree.

And the (reported) maybe 100+ or probably more, including many women and children who weren't Hamas, and who weren't armed and holding hostages - just more collateral damage?
If you read the available information, what has been reported so far is that the team that rescued the three male hostages were met with heavy fire after they left the building with the hostages. Air support was provided so that they could leave the area, and, yes, there was heavy shooting and bombardment to clear a path. It's the same tactic that the U.S. used to evacuate the Black Hawk Down crew. The bombardment wasn't called in until the rescue team was unable to escape.

jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Or open season?
That's just mean spirited, bordering on anti-Semitic, also known as Jew-hating. If you truly think that that is what's going on, you've shown your stripes more clearly than you have ever before, to my knowledge. Shame on you.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by tamada » June 10, 2024, 11:05 pm

Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 9:11 pm
jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 1:49 pm
When civilians are armed and holding hostages on behalf of a terrorist organization, hostages which were taken in a terrorist raid, even if they are holding the hostages in their home, they become combatants and legitimate targets.
I agree.

And the (reported) maybe 100+ or probably more, including many women and children who weren't Hamas, and who weren't armed and holding hostages - just more collateral damage?
If you read the available information, what has been reported so far is that the team that rescued the three male hostages were met with heavy fire after they left the building with the hostages. Air support was provided so that they could leave the area, and, yes, there was heavy shooting and bombardment to clear a path. It's the same tactic that the U.S. used to evacuate the Black Hawk Down crew. The bombardment wasn't called in until the rescue team was unable to escape.

jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Or open season?
That's just mean spirited, bordering on anti-Semitic, also known as Jew-hating. If you truly think that that is what's going on, you've shown your stripes more clearly than you have ever before, to my knowledge. Shame on you.
Well said. If the second team of BRAVE Israeli special forces and the three hostages they rescued had been captured, their bodies would probably been dragged through the streets by the COWARDLY Hamas to be filmed and spread on social media by the FAKE Al Jazeera correspondents.

Staying silent on Hamas's barbarous domination of humanity is nothing short of condoning their heinous criminality.
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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 9:11 pm

jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Or open season?
That's just mean spirited, bordering on anti-Semitic, also known as Jew-hating. If you truly think that that is what's going on, you've shown your stripes more clearly than you have ever before, to my knowledge. Shame on you.
Are the UN General Assembly, the ICJ and the ICC also mean spirited and bordering on anti-Semitic?

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 11, 2024, 10:35 am

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 9:01 am
Udon Map wrote:
June 10, 2024, 9:11 pm
jackspratt wrote:
June 10, 2024, 8:05 pm
Or open season?
That's just mean spirited, bordering on anti-Semitic, also known as Jew-hating. If you truly think that that is what's going on, you've shown your stripes more clearly than you have ever before, to my knowledge. Shame on you.
Are the UN General Assembly, the ICJ and the ICC also mean spirited and bordering on anti-Semitic?
I don't recall any of these organizations suggesting that the "Palestinian" deaths during the rescue operation might have been attributable to "open season" on civilians. Can you give me a cite?

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 10:47 am

"Open season" is a reference to the numerous events since late last year, not just the hostage rescue - which meaning you seem to recognise by your own words:
If you truly think that that is what's going on,.......

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 11, 2024, 11:05 am

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 10:47 am
"Open season" is a reference to the numerous events since late last year, not just the hostage rescue - which meaning you seem to recognise by your own words:
If you truly think that that is what's going on,.......
I stand by my statement. In the context in which you used it, "open season" clearly refers to this past operation. That's what your post was commenting on. Now, in a quick pivot, you seek to claim that you were referring to the past months. However, your post clearly refers to what you called "And the (reported) maybe 100+ or probably more, including many women and children who weren't Hamas, and who weren't armed and holding hostages . . . ." Nothing like a little revisionism to cover up what you really mean.

But, OK, let's play it your way. Hamas' stated purpose and goal is to rid the world of Jews. Is that not the definition of genocide? Israel's stated goal is to rid the world of Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 11:37 am

There is no "pivot".

Open season is an extension of "collateral damage", which term I have previously used on this thread.

And to be clear, I believe that is what could be happening - both in this operation, and previous ones in Gaza.

So please don't try to tell me what I "really mean", because like previously, you are wrong.

Hamas, whatever it might be saying in its unhinged manifesto, does not have the capacity to rid the world of Jews, let alone in Israel. So while its intent may be genocidal, it's never going to happen - particularly as they are currently receiving their comeuppance in Gaza.

The human and physical cost of that decimation, and its proportionality, are what international bodies are looking at closely, and are deserving of our attention.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 11, 2024, 11:44 am

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:37 am
So please don't try to tell me what I "really mean", because like previously, you are wrong.
I can't read your mind. I, and other readers who have agreed with me, derive what you mean from what you post.

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:37 am
Hamas, whatever it might be saying in its unhinged manifesto, does not have the capacity to rid the world of Jews, let alone in Israel. So while its intent may be genocidal, it's never going to happen - particularly as they are currently receiving their comeuppance in Gaza.
I agree. But that doesn't seem to stop them from trying. As I've posted previously, "Palestinians" could have had their own country decades ago had their leaders been willing to live in peace with Israel. And the question remains, -- what price is Hamas prepared to have the "Palestinian" people pay for its pursuit of an unattainable goal?

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:37 am
The human and physical cost of that decimation, and its proportionality, are what international bodies are looking at closely, and are deserving of our attention.
Here's a letter to the editor I just read in the NYTimes:
Yes, only four hostages were freed as a result of Israel’s military operation. Yet the message to Hamas and those Palestinian civilians who are hiding Israeli hostages is clear: Israel will act to free those hostages, regardless of the cost.

That cost is high. Many innocent Palestinians have been killed, while Israel continues to incur the wrath of those who would have Israel, not Hamas, pay the price for Hamas terrorism. The way to avoid such hazards, however, is clear: Hamas should free the hostages — all of them.

If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?

Tell me, -- at what point would you have Israel stop trying to rescue hostages? If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 12:11 pm

Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:44 am
Here's a letter to the editor I just read in the NYTimes:
Here is the letter immediately following it:
It is difficult to celebrate the rescue of four hostages while watching the carnage the military operation delivered to Palestinians in Gaza — particularly with the knowledge that many more hostages were released during past cease-fire diplomacy and with the logical conclusion that these four, along with many more of the remaining hostages, could have been released by similar means.

Increasingly, Israel is presenting an image that it cares only about its own citizens and does not value the lives of Palestinians. This is a sad statement.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 11, 2024, 12:14 pm

Any answers, Jack?
Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:44 am
Tell me, -- at what point would you have Israel stop trying to rescue hostages? If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 12:22 pm

Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 12:14 pm
Any answers, Jack?
Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:44 am
Tell me, -- at what point would you have Israel stop trying to rescue hostages? If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?
Refer to the letter above - I quoted it deliberately, as it answers your question far more eloquently than I could.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by tamada » June 11, 2024, 2:45 pm

...particularly with the knowledge that many more hostages were released during past cease-fire diplomacy and with the logical conclusion that these four, along with many more of the remaining hostages, could have been released by similar means.
Many more released during past cease-fire diplomacy?

When and how many?

As for the "logical" argument, you have Hamas terrorists on one side and Jewish zealots on the other. Right now, I doubt either is capable of any logical thought process.
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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2024, 3:19 pm

That's just mean spirited, bordering on anti-Semitic, also known as Jew-hating. If you truly think that that is what's going on, you've shown your stripes more clearly than you have ever before, to my knowledge. Shame on you.
Surprised it took you so long to either realise or just acknowledge the truth in what you are saying above UM.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2024, 3:54 pm

What in God's name is wrong with these people who call the IDF's actions deplorable but handily avoid commenting that Hamas were holding the Israeli hostages among innocent Palestinian civilians, including WOMEN AND CHILDREN, inside a refugee camp?
You have to question the term 'innocent Palestinian civilians'. I am sorry but most insurgencies/terror organisations exist because they have the support of most of the people. Its been the same through the ages. The majority of "innocents might not be carrying out acts of terror per say but the support of the people allows terrorists to exist and carry on their murderous activities. The Palestinians celebrating and cheering the HAMAS thugs parading the Israeli hostages through Gaza might not have been the gun totting 'hero's' who attacked a music festival and old people in their homes but to stand celebrating the horror these hostages must have gone through at the time is not "innocence" by any means. Did not see many protests or "innocent people" coming forwards to condemn or even say where the hostages were being held.
No doubt the HAMAS propaganda machine will treble the amount of casualties and blame the IDF for the killing of their own soldiers plus 75% of the casualties will be 'starving, emaciated women and children, but thats to be expected.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by jackspratt » June 11, 2024, 4:49 pm

tamada wrote:
June 11, 2024, 2:45 pm
...particularly with the knowledge that many more hostages were released during past cease-fire diplomacy and with the logical conclusion that these four, along with many more of the remaining hostages, could have been released by similar means.
Many more released during past cease-fire diplomacy?

When and how many?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... alestinian

There were more in the following days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Isra ... _ceasefire

Total was 105 by Hamas, not sure how many by Israel, but more than that.

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2024, 6:49 pm

Total was 105 by Hamas, not sure how many by Israel, but more than that.
Yes way more (around 3 x as many) and a good proportion released by the terrorists were non Israeli ie Thai's and others ( perhaps the murdering hero's wanted to exterminate Buddhists as well)

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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by tamada » June 11, 2024, 8:06 pm

How quickly some of us forget.

So, do those 105 spontaneous, earlier releases mean they're a legitimate, reliable and honest governing authority that can be logically expected to be more peaceful and benevolent moving forward?
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Re: Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

Post by Udon Map » June 11, 2024, 9:39 pm

jackspratt wrote:
June 11, 2024, 12:22 pm
Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 12:14 pm
Any answers, Jack?
Udon Map wrote:
June 11, 2024, 11:44 am
Tell me, -- at what point would you have Israel stop trying to rescue hostages? If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?
Refer to the letter above - I quoted it deliberately, as it answers your question far more eloquently than I could.
Yes, I read the letter, but you still haven't answered the questions.

1. At what point would you have Israel stop trying to rescue hostages? (You, not the writer of the letter. Please be specific.)

2. If your children were being held hostage by a terrorist organization, would you be concerned about world opinion — yet alone show restraint?

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