Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 16, 2020, 12:57 pm

noosard wrote:
October 16, 2020, 6:07 am
Just curious about which ev cars have these super light batteries Whistler
Not really sure to be honest.

I know VW (the worlds largest carmaker) and BMW have agreement with Bosch, being German companies I suppose that is to be expected. As car battery weight/performance is improving at a rate of 7% each year, it is reasonable to suspect this list will grow. At that rate, electric vehicles will be about the same weight as a petrol powered car (full tank) weighs in the next few years.

VW alone are investing billions of Euros into electric vehicle and hybrids with all new plants in China being built exclusively for this market. They are projecting sales of well over a million vehicles once the plants are completed.

Electric vehicle sales still only represent a couple of percent of the total car market, but this sector is growing at a rate of 40% per annum.

Will hydrogen powered cars change the dynamics? Who knows? What is a clear trend, the automotive sector, like other market sectors are moving rapidly towards renewables, a trend that is unlikely to change. I disagree with those who claim as this thread title says that renewables are not viable.


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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 16, 2020, 7:47 pm

noosard, how many petrol powered cars use super light engines?
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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by bluejets » October 17, 2020, 6:46 am

glalt wrote:
October 16, 2020, 8:46 am
I now believe that battery powered vehicles are indeed the future

My computer, router and surveillance cameras go off when the grid fails and now run off my solar 24/7.
Good setup.....Lead acid still the best investment as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Lipo batteries, same with many things, the more manufactured, the cheaper the price.
However, I wonder at the dust to dust cost when considering the lithium waste.
And the Chinese have a habit of flooding the market with crap batteries on the cheap as they have done with R/c for many years. Many find the cheap price attractive but regret it a few months later when the packs start to swell up, sometimes bursting into flames during charge/discharge.

The solar route is a definite plus without the battery component.
Run a 5kW system here in Aus with feedback to the grid.
The feedback payment rate is rather low @ around 8c/unit at the moment compared to standard tarif of 25c/unit.
Best I could arrange was to run a 250 litre (60 gallon) storage hot water unit via a time clock so that during daylight hours of between 9 and 3, it would reheat.
This is all via the inverter and runs at the nominal 220v.
So in some ways regarded as a "storage" of energy.
Most of our cooking and washing is done during daylight hours so mostly just the frig, tv and a couple of light at night to pay for.
System life is reportedly 20 years and it has already paid for itself in just over 4 years.

Did see a variation on this the other day where some bloke simply hooked up a couple of panels direct to the hot water heater.
No inverter etc. just straight on the DC. So it heats whenever the sun shines (via the thermostat of course), no requirement for any local authority check and balances etc.
Thought it was quite a novel idea and would suit many up in Thailand.
Naturally one needs water which quite often goes off up there and power to run a pump but can't have everthing I guess.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by noosard » October 17, 2020, 6:53 am

Whistler wrote:
October 16, 2020, 7:47 pm
noosard, how many petrol powered cars use super light engines?
Not about how many, is about your bs ing a video
You stated he bs about the 500kg battery weight
I justed asked what cars have these lite weight batteries
The only car you mentioned is a hybrid not an ev
And to add to the weight of the batteries is the cooling system needed to stop them catching fire

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by glalt » October 17, 2020, 9:05 am

I would think that the lipo batteries would be redesigned. There is something about having thousands of those little batteries connected in series to produce enough voltage to be useful just doesn't seem right. With lead acid batteries, the more amp hours required, the bigger and heavier the battery.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by glalt » October 17, 2020, 9:23 am

bluejets wrote:
October 17, 2020, 6:46 am
glalt wrote:
October 16, 2020, 8:46 am
I now believe that battery powered vehicles are indeed the future

My computer, router and surveillance cameras go off when the grid fails and now run off my solar 24/7.
Good setup.....Lead acid still the best investment as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Lipo batteries, same with many things, the more manufactured, the cheaper the price.
However, I wonder at the dust to dust cost when considering the lithium waste.
And the Chinese have a habit of flooding the market with crap batteries on the cheap as they have done with R/c for many years. Many find the cheap price attractive but regret it a few months later when the packs start to swell up, sometimes bursting into flames during charge/discharge.

The solar route is a definite plus without the battery component.
Run a 5kW system here in Aus with feedback to the grid.
The feedback payment rate is rather low @ around 8c/unit at the moment compared to standard tarif of 25c/unit.
Best I could arrange was to run a 250 litre (60 gallon) storage hot water unit via a time clock so that during daylight hours of between 9 and 3, it would reheat.
This is all via the inverter and runs at the nominal 220v.
So in some ways regarded as a "storage" of energy.
Most of our cooking and washing is done during daylight hours so mostly just the frig, tv and a couple of light at night to pay for.
System life is reportedly 20 years and it has already paid for itself in just over 4 years.

Did see a variation on this the other day where some bloke simply hooked up a couple of panels direct to the hot water heater.
No inverter etc. just straight on the DC. So it heats whenever the sun shines (via the thermostat of course), no requirement for any local authority check and balances etc.
Thought it was quite a novel idea and would suit many up in Thailand.
Naturally one needs water which quite often goes off up there and power to run a pump but can't have everthing I guess.
Grid tie inverters are great except that when the grid goes down, so do the grid tie inverters. That means you still have no electricity when the grid is down. Some areas like my Jomtien condo have a very reliable electric grid. Up in the boonies where I live, the grid stinks. To benefit from solar, I have no choice except expensive battery banks.

A few years ago I read an article explaining wind power along windy coastal areas. They pump water up a hill to a large pond and and electric is generated with turbines from water coming back down the hill.

My wife has two farms with solar irrigation. Before that she irrigated with diesel powered pumps. I am impressed with the submersible DC water pumps. The more sun, the more water they pump.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 17, 2020, 11:15 am

noosard wrote:
October 17, 2020, 6:53 am
Whistler wrote:
October 16, 2020, 7:47 pm
noosard, how many petrol powered cars use super light engines?
Not about how many, is about your bs ing a video
You stated he bs about the 500kg battery weight
I justed asked what cars have these lite weight batteries
The only car you mentioned is a hybrid not an ev
And to add to the weight of the batteries is the cooling system needed to stop them catching fire
OK expert, what is the weight of the cooling system for an EV compared to the cooling system of a petrol powered vehicle, when I spoke about new generation vehicles I mentioned manufacturers, not vehicle models.

Once again Noosard, you don't want a logical discussion on anything, you just want to be oppositional, a big waste of space on this forum.

Build a bridge and get over it.
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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by bluejets » October 18, 2020, 5:18 am

glalt wrote:
October 17, 2020, 9:23 am
I have no choice except expensive battery banks.
Yes I did realise that.
The main point was that a storage hot water system is one form of energy storage which could be helpful up in Thailand.

Help to reduce electric consumption and some of the low voltage problems people have from using too small mains run over who knows how many hundreds of metres. :D

Wind power in mainland Aus is totally useless. Tassie maybe.......most of mainland Thailand would be the same.
Although I did see the UK thinking along the extra energy from wind but then again I think it blow a gale 24/7 up there.

It will be quite a while before anyone comes close to the cost/reliability/long service one currently gets with lead acid.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by noosard » October 18, 2020, 7:33 am

Whistler wrote:
October 17, 2020, 11:15 am
noosard wrote:
October 17, 2020, 6:53 am
Whistler wrote:
October 16, 2020, 7:47 pm
noosard, how many petrol powered cars use super light engines?
Not about how many, is about your bs ing a video
You stated he bs about the 500kg battery weight
I justed asked what cars have these lite weight batteries
The only car you mentioned is a hybrid not an ev
And to add to the weight of the batteries is the cooling system needed to stop them catching fire
OK expert, what is the weight of the cooling system for an EV compared to the cooling system of a petrol powered vehicle, when I spoke about new generation vehicles I mentioned manufacturers, not vehicle models.

Once again Noosard, you don't want a logical discussion on anything, you just want to be oppositional, a big waste of space on this forum.

Build a bridge and get over it.
No it is you that bs someone elses story with no backup
I asked an easy question which you didnt have an answer for
So I will ask again what ev car uses these so called super lite batteries weighing less than 400kg total
Your one car which is a Toyota Prius that used against the orginal story is not an ev
And who was being oppositional the very second post of this thread
I will give a hint You

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 18, 2020, 10:37 am

noosard wrote:
October 18, 2020, 7:33 am
Whistler wrote:
October 17, 2020, 11:15 am
noosard wrote:
October 17, 2020, 6:53 am
Whistler wrote:
October 16, 2020, 7:47 pm
noosard, how many petrol powered cars use super light engines?
Not about how many, is about your bs ing a video
You stated he bs about the 500kg battery weight
I justed asked what cars have these lite weight batteries
The only car you mentioned is a hybrid not an ev
And to add to the weight of the batteries is the cooling system needed to stop them catching fire
OK expert, what is the weight of the cooling system for an EV compared to the cooling system of a petrol powered vehicle, when I spoke about new generation vehicles I mentioned manufacturers, not vehicle models.

Once again Noosard, you don't want a logical discussion on anything, you just want to be oppositional, a big waste of space on this forum.

Build a bridge and get over it.
No it is you that bs someone elses story with no backup
I asked an easy question which you didnt have an answer for
So I will ask again what ev car uses these so called super lite batteries weighing less than 400kg total
Your one car which is a Toyota Prius that used against the orginal story is not an ev
And who was being oppositional the very second post of this thread
I will give a hint You
Please show me the post where I stated the Prius was using the light weight Bosch batteries, in regards to any comments I made about the Bosch batteries, I mentioned three German car makers, no models.

No more answering any more of your messages, it is not worth answering when you conflate statements for no useful purpose but to be oppositional
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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by glalt » October 18, 2020, 1:03 pm

It will be quite a while before anyone comes close to the cost/reliability/long service one currently gets with lead acid.
[/quote]

Good point. When I see golf carts powered with lipo batteries that will be a sign that the price has become competitive and the batteries reliable. Even if I were willing to make the investment for lipo batteries, I would always have the fear that the cheap Chinese components I use, while very reliable for lead acid, would somehow ruin those batteries. A large part of the cost for the Tesla Powerwall is for the special components.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 18, 2020, 7:53 pm

glalt wrote:
October 18, 2020, 1:03 pm
It will be quite a while before anyone comes close to the cost/reliability/long service one currently gets with lead acid.
Good point. When I see golf carts powered with lipo batteries that will be a sign that the price has become competitive and the batteries reliable. Even if I were willing to make the investment for lipo batteries, I would always have the fear that the cheap Chinese components I use, while very reliable for lead acid, would somehow ruin those batteries. A large part of the cost for the Tesla Powerwall is for the special components.
[/quote]

Lead acid batteries have a role, and perform that role very well, but will never be option for EV vehicles, nor will they power my Seiko watch.
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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by noosard » October 19, 2020, 8:16 am

Please show me the post where I stated the Prius was using the light weight Bosch batteries, in regards to any comments I made about the Bosch batteries, I mentioned three German car makers, no models.

No more answering any more of your messages, it is not worth answering when you conflate statements for no useful purpose but to be oppositional
[/quote]

Please show me where I said Prius were using Boshe batteries
And your use of Prius and 90kg for ev cars is a big mistake on your part
But this where you have mentioned a brand
"Most electric car batteries weigh 230KG with the new Bosch battery coming in at 190KG."

Coming, so is tomorrow

http://www.tf.llu.lv/conference/proceed ... s/N316.pdf
Using lithium-ion batteries in electric automobiles the weight of the battery system necessary for
traveling 100 km can exceed 150 kg. For limousine-class electric automobiles, the travel range of
which is more than 300 km, the weight of batteries could exceed 500 kg
Now this is the recent past to the present

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by tamada » October 19, 2020, 9:38 am

Whistler wrote:
October 18, 2020, 10:37 am

Please show me the post where I stated the Prius was using the light weight Bosch batteries, in regards to any comments I made about the Bosch batteries, I mentioned three German car makers, no models.

No more answering any more of your messages, it is not worth answering when you conflate statements for no useful purpose but to be oppositional
So says the wind-powered man who mentioned the comparatively small size of the battery in a HYBRID Prius to argue the legitimate claim that Tesla EV batteries are around half-a-ton.

"Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, opinions, etc., into one, often in error."

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Whistler » October 19, 2020, 10:05 am

The title of this thread is 'Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it'

It is not Tamada, please join in on another personal attack.
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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Khun Paul » October 19, 2020, 11:37 am

With battery technology moving forward in what appears to be leaps and bounds, longevity obviously will be the key coupled with reliability and then cost, my fear at this stage in EV infancy, is that any EV vehicle you may buy , the battery shape etc will change as newer more reliable ones come on line, thereby, making your model obsolete and how many manufacturers will continue to make or even sell the older model batteries as they will be expensive and no longer competitive.

EV /Hybrid is the way forward in my view for MY foreseeable future 10/20 years, as technology becomes more advanced , maybe it will reach a plateau of innovation and batteries/size and cost will settle down so forward predictions of longevity can be made and become cost effective.
Hopefully coupled with advances in Solar panels to effectively harness what Mother nature provides free and with the current predictions on temperature rising looks to be the way forward, but House building is STILL refusing to incorporate Solar as part of new build even here, which I find amazing. As for Car solar innovation still a long way to go

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Doodoo » October 19, 2020, 12:17 pm

KP there is a Gentleman in fact in India (some of the countries Cambodia, Australia etc are other ones) which powers his Tuktuk using Sloar He just completed a 10,000 km trip from India to the UK
So the journey to power vehicles using solar is not so far off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhf7i7n9ea8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEEW04MfHVw

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by glalt » October 19, 2020, 12:19 pm

A friend of mine lived in Ao Nang, Krabi. He got very disgusted with the several expensive schools he sent his daughter to. He decided to move back to the US at least until his daughter got a decent education. His Thai wife refused to go with him but permitted him to take their daughter. He bought a fairly large property in the boonies of Montana. The house was heated with a wood burner and was not connected to the electric grid. It was totally reliant on solar power. After the first snowfall and his solar panels were covered in snow. (I should add that this guy is a multi millionaire). He paid big money to get connected to the electric grid and foolishly (IMHO) totally removed all the solar equipment. It just goes to show you that solar electric isn't really ideal in some areas. When I say big money, I don't know the amount, but I do know that it was many thousands of dollars. His daughter is now in the US Air Force, doing well, and he has never returned to Thailand. We kept in touch for years but I have not heard from him for several months and I fear the worst.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Khun Paul » October 19, 2020, 2:38 pm

Yes solar is not and never will be the answer in many parts of the world, due to weather variations , although lack of sun I am told is not the problem, but a few feet of snow would be I am sure . Amazingly in a country with ample sun often too much, Thailand trails behind many in solar considering the poor infrastructure in supplying electricity to some of the more remote human habitats, but its price means that those that need it are unable to afford it , which is rather sad, better I would have thought update and improve local infrastructure than build a fast railway form A to B in which only those that can afford Solar will be able to afford the Train fare.

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Re: Solar/Wind energy for the future. Forget it

Post by Doodoo » October 19, 2020, 3:16 pm

#1 producer of solar is Germany, 2 China, 3 Japan, 4 Italy, and 5 USA all have snow which does not deter them at all

Germany
Germany has long been at the forefront of solar power and produced a total of 38.2 gigawatts (GW) out of 177 GW produced globally in 2014. To put that in perspective, 1 GW is around the output of a large natural gas or nuclear plant. On several occasions, Germany has met over 50% of the nation’s daily energy needs from solar power. Germany’s long-term shift to cleaner energy has made its economy the world’s largest to rely so markedly on renewable energy.


Although Germany is far from a sun-drenched nation, its goal is to rely on solar and other renewable sources of energy for 100% of its electric power by 2050. Clearly the world leader in the advancement of solar power, Germany is rapidly adding to its solar capacity every day to reach this goal.

Thailand enjoys abundant solar resources all year round. On the back of the local government's support, investment in Thailand's renewable energy sector has been rising gradually in recent years, making the country a key region of solar investment in Southeast Asian countries, according to Shanxi Electric Power Engineering.

The first ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) member state to institute the equivalent of a feed-in tariff (FiT), more solar power capacity has been installed in Thailand than in any other of the 10 ASEAN members. That’s a diverse group that, along with Thailand, ranges from Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar, Indonesia and the Philippines to Brunei, Vietnam, Malaysia and Singapore.

Research a bit KP first off before condeming
https://solarmagazine.com/solar-profiles/thailand/
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3621460-e ... r-projects

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