Hong Kong's Freedom

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Laan Yaa Mo
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » January 20, 2023, 11:42 am

Culture? Who mentioned Chinese culture?


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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by papafarang » January 20, 2023, 12:04 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
January 20, 2023, 11:42 am
Culture? Who mentioned Chinese culture?
Er ? i did lol. don't read well do you.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » January 20, 2023, 3:09 pm

Thanks for the explanation, which as always, is much appreciated.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Earnest » January 20, 2023, 8:06 pm

I must say you're keeping this all very well natured in the light of being goaded by the Chinese Communist apologists. Good on yer!
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » January 21, 2023, 12:21 pm

Earnest wrote:
January 20, 2023, 8:06 pm
I must say you're keeping this all very well natured in the light of being goaded by the Chinese Communist apologists. Good on yer!
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 14, 2023, 9:33 am

Hong Kong's right to freedom of expression when the Ming Pao newspaper bowed in to political pressure and suspended the satirical columns of Zunzi. Should we be surprised? No. Nevertheless it is a sad day for freedom and democracy.

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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 14, 2023, 2:32 pm

One would have to be naive in the extreme to think a totalitarian state like China would allow any sort of freedom to threaten its control in any of it's regions. It was always part of China anyhow, simply ripped off them after the Opium wars.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 14, 2023, 6:17 pm

Your way of thinking suggests that Taiwan should be part of China too, and we should sit idly by and permit China to re-unite Taiwan with the motherland.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 29, 2023, 3:32 pm

It is sad to say that the 'Civic Party', one of Hong Kong's last remaining democratic parties, is no more. They've see the writing on the wall and it isn't democratic. It's the sound of silence.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-hon ... -1.6856938
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 29, 2023, 4:09 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 14, 2023, 6:17 pm
Your way of thinking suggests that Taiwan should be part of China too, and we should sit idly by and permit China to re-unite Taiwan with the motherland.
My sympathies are firmly with the people of Taiwan, many of whom have close ties to Northern China. I have spent a fair amount of time in Taipei and have many business associates there that became friends. What I am saying is if Taiwan somehow gets control of Taiwan will go the way of HK, that is freedom will be surpressed.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 29, 2023, 4:55 pm

Whistler wrote:
May 29, 2023, 4:09 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 14, 2023, 6:17 pm
Your way of thinking suggests that Taiwan should be part of China too, and we should sit idly by and permit China to re-unite Taiwan with the motherland.
My sympathies are firmly with the people of Taiwan, many of whom have close ties to Northern China. I have spent a fair amount of time in Taipei and have many business associates there that became friends. What I am saying is if Taiwan somehow gets control of Taiwan will go the way of HK, that is freedom will be surpressed.
That was not the issue I posed to you about Taiwan.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 29, 2023, 6:13 pm

The is no simple answer. This is a game being played, certainly brinkmanship is in play.

Do I think we should stoutly defend and support yes.

Do you think it should create WWIII. Nope
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 30, 2023, 8:04 am

Whistler wrote:
May 29, 2023, 6:13 pm
The is no simple answer. This is a game being played, certainly brinkmanship is in play.

Do I think we should stoutly defend and support yes.

Do you think it should create WWIII. Nope
Good. Now, back to the original thought. Why do you feel Taiwan is worth defending and supporting, and Hong Kong is/was not?
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by tamada » May 30, 2023, 8:52 am

Whistler wrote:
May 29, 2023, 4:09 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 14, 2023, 6:17 pm
Your way of thinking suggests that Taiwan should be part of China too, and we should sit idly by and permit China to re-unite Taiwan with the motherland.
My sympathies are firmly with the people of Taiwan, many of whom have close ties to Northern China. I have spent a fair amount of time in Taipei and have many business associates there that became friends. What I am saying is if Taiwan somehow gets control of Taiwan will go the way of HK, that is freedom will be surpressed.
I know you're not suggesting Taiwan isn't already in control of Taiwan but we get your drift.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 30, 2023, 11:01 am

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 30, 2023, 8:04 am
Whistler wrote:
May 29, 2023, 6:13 pm
The is no simple answer. This is a game being played, certainly brinkmanship is in play.

Do I think we should stoutly defend and support yes.

Do you think it should create WWIII. Nope
Good. Now, back to the original thought. Why do you feel Taiwan is worth defending and supporting, and Hong Kong is/was not?
These are two very different cases.

HK territory was leased by the UK from China, there was never any argument that it was an independent nation. This was internationally recognised.

Taiwan (Formosa) was variously claimed or conquered over the past few centuries by China and Japan. It even existed as an independent nation for a short while, but has mostly been part of China. It declared independence again after WWII, but that is a disputed claim. It was reoccupied by some mainland Chinese under Chang Khi Chek

Sovereignty over HK was never disputed, Sovereignty over Taiwan is disputed between 2 Chinese factions, much more akin to an internal civil war.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by deankham » May 30, 2023, 12:03 pm

I'm sure LYM will be able to confirm as he is far more knowledgeable than me in this area, but I was led to believe that the UK owned HK Island (and maybe Kowloon) as it had been given / ceeded by China to UK. Therefore it was only the New Territories that was leased from China.

As part of the handover of NT the UK Government decided to return all of HK (including HK Island, Kowloon, NT, etc) back to China.

Happy to be corrected if this is the wrong understanding.

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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 30, 2023, 1:54 pm

deankham wrote:
May 30, 2023, 12:03 pm
I'm sure LYM will be able to confirm as he is far more knowledgeable than me in this area, but I was led to believe that the UK owned HK Island (and maybe Kowloon) as it had been given / ceeded by China to UK. Therefore it was only the New Territories that was leased from China.

As part of the handover of NT the UK Government decided to return all of HK (including HK Island, Kowloon, NT, etc) back to China.

Happy to be corrected if this is the wrong understanding.
In 1898 HK and surrounding territories was leased to the UK for 99 years, the UK never owned that land
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by deankham » May 30, 2023, 2:15 pm

^ Hi Whistler,

See below from Wikipedia that may or may not be 100% correct. It refers to my thinking that only N.T was leased for 99 years.
End of agreement
In the Treaty of Nanking, in 1842, the Qing government agreed to make Hong Kong a Crown colony, ceding it 'in perpetuity', following British victory in the First Opium War. During the second half of the 19th century, Britain had become concerned over the security of the isolated island, Hong Kong. Consequently, in Convention of Peking, following British victory in the Second Opium War, Kowloon Peninsula was ceded to Britain. The New Territories, with a 99-year lease, were the only territories forming the Crown colony of Hong Kong that were obliged by agreement to be returned. However, by the time of serious negotiations in the 1980s, it was seen as impractical to separate the ceded territories and return only the New Territories to China, due to the scarcity of resources in Hong Kong and Kowloon, and the large developments in the New Territories. Consequently, at midnight following the evening of 30 June 1997, the entire crown colony of Hong Kong officially reverted to Chinese sovereignty, ending British rule there 156 years after it began.

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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Whistler » May 30, 2023, 2:19 pm

deankham wrote:
May 30, 2023, 2:15 pm
^ Hi Whistler,

See below from Wikipedia that may or may not be 100% correct. It refers to my thinking that only N.T was leased for 99 years.
End of agreement
In the Treaty of Nanking, in 1842, the Qing government agreed to make Hong Kong a Crown colony, ceding it 'in perpetuity', following British victory in the First Opium War. During the second half of the 19th century, Britain had become concerned over the security of the isolated island, Hong Kong. Consequently, in Convention of Peking, following British victory in the Second Opium War, Kowloon Peninsula was ceded to Britain. The New Territories, with a 99-year lease, were the only territories forming the Crown colony of Hong Kong that were obliged by agreement to be returned. However, by the time of serious negotiations in the 1980s, it was seen as impractical to separate the ceded territories and return only the New Territories to China, due to the scarcity of resources in Hong Kong and Kowloon, and the large developments in the New Territories. Consequently, at midnight following the evening of 30 June 1997, the entire crown colony of Hong Kong officially reverted to Chinese sovereignty, ending British rule there 156 years after it began.
Thanks for this Mr. D I was not aware of this variation before.
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Re: Hong Kong's Freedom

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » May 31, 2023, 8:18 am

deankham wrote:
May 30, 2023, 12:03 pm
I'm sure LYM will be able to confirm as he is far more knowledgeable than me in this area, but I was led to believe that the UK owned HK Island (and maybe Kowloon) as it had been given / ceeded by China to UK. Therefore it was only the New Territories that was leased from China.

As part of the handover of NT the UK Government decided to return all of HK (including HK Island, Kowloon, NT, etc) back to China.

Happy to be corrected if this is the wrong understanding.
You are correct. Boundary Street in Kowloon separated Hong Kong from China. The Ch'ing Government ceded Hong Kong Island and Kowloon up to the Boundary. Thatcher intended to live up to the terms of the Treaty; however, she could not get support from the U.S., and realised Britain could not stand up to China alone. This is around the time T'eng Hsiao-p'ing called Thatcher a cow. The U.S. weren't really interested in helping Britain hold on to any vestiges of Empire; furthermore, T'eng appeared to be moving China toward a more open, capitalist and democratic direction.

Taiwan is different in that the U.S. has a direct interest in maintaining an independent Taiwan. Remember that even when Chiang K'ai-shek moved his national government to Taiwan (Formosa), he agreed with Mao that Taiwan was part of China. Most people at the time agreed. Most people at the time would have thought that the British colony of Hong Kong would have stayed part of the Empire too. Thus, Taiwan is useful to the U.S. in many ways (strategic, military, economic, political), and will try to defend it and help maintain its independence.
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