Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by **jackspratt** » June 27, 2013, 8:57 pm

As far as I am concerned, Snowden fits firmly into the hero category - based on what has been revealed by him so far. Up there with Assange and Manning (and some time ago, Ellsberg)

If he (Snowden) has revealed real secrets, my opinion may change. But at the moment he has performed a brave act of public service - (further) exposing the extent to which the spooks spy on every one of us, either legally or otherwise.

Thumbs up to China and Russia in cocking a snoot at the overweening arrogance of the NSA/CIA/GCHQ/ASD et al. =D> =D> =D>

Post by **mortiboy** » June 27, 2013, 9:02 pm

A traitor Anyone gives secret information to other countries, especially military data is a traitor.
Hang him!

Post by **fdimike** » June 28, 2013, 2:07 am

I have to agree with JS. The sad part about all this isthat unbeknownst to most people is that the NSA has been involved in similar "programs" since its illegal inception. James Bamford has written a trilogy of books about the "No Such Agency". His writings should be read by all Americans concerned about their liberities. The Washington Post/NY Times also ran an excellent series of articles about this agency. Too bad there are not more Americans willing to stand up for what is right and not just along "following orders".

Post by **MALC** » June 28, 2013, 4:25 am

a hero well done russia

Post by **sfbandung** » June 28, 2013, 4:45 am

I don't think it's fair to compare him directly with Assange, who in my opinion is a narcissistic ----- who revealed actual secrets that put operatives in real danger. The charges he faces in Sweden aren't related to his Wikileaks activities, they relate to the fact that he has routinely treated women like rubbish, in true narcissist style.

Snowden has exposed systematic spying on the general populace that people were unaware of. In fact had been lead to believe that it was not actually the case. To wit Obama falling all over himself in denying that actual phone calls were recorded, then having to admit that they were.

Post by **Khun Paul** » June 28, 2013, 5:35 am

One mans meat is anothers poison. personally anyone who has employment from his/her government does so with a rider that any secrets be they good or bad are just that secret. it may be that the work does not fit in your personal views of liberty, then you have an option, shut up or change jobs. it does not however give anyone the god given right to speak to a third party about what you know or don't know.
That is traitorous and could be also treasonable against your country, sure some would protray you as a hero/heroine, but the plain truth is that you have acted illegally against your own country.
Only those I find who have reason to worry about what they have said or posted on the internet really complai,n. Sure it makes me think about what I say or post, but in reality I don't care, so those with nothing to hide shouldn't worry either. if that is the only way, I am protected I believe from being blown out of the sky, or even blown up, shot, maimed or even injured in some way by the halfwits/terrorists/jihadists/or other people who seem to think innocents are fair game, then so be it, I will put up with any or all percieved infringement of my personal liberty, I have nothing to hide at all.

Post by **FrazeeDK** » June 28, 2013, 6:14 am

Snowden worked for the Agency so knew about serious non-disclosure rules.. The fact that he was only employed by NSA for about 3 months with only one of them being actually in the job as a System Admin and Cyber Security guy makes me think he planned the whole thing out... What his actual motivations were/are for doing what he did will come out in time.. I don't buy his current wailings about privacy and freedom of speech et al.. If he ends up in Cuba or Venezuala or Ecuador it pretty much shows his true colors and that was to stick it to his own country..

Post by **Svein66** » June 28, 2013, 7:04 am

Good post, Khun Paul!

Snowden should be jailed for a long time, and Assange, also mentioned above, should be put to death.

Post by **fatbob** » June 28, 2013, 7:08 am

Khun Paul wrote:One mans meat is anothers poison. personally anyone who has employment from his/her government does so with a rider that any secrets be they good or bad are just that secret. it may be that the work does not fit in your personal views of liberty, then you have an option, shut up or change jobs. i

So if you were employed by Adolph Hitler and new what he was doing was wrong you do not let your conscience decide right from wrong, you put your head in a bucket of sand and just go with it because he pays you every week?

Post by **merchant seaman** » June 28, 2013, 7:23 am

Amazing that Obama won't get involved. Refuses to even call Putin. Says Snowden is only a 29 year old hacker and he shouldn't have to get involved. I guess he doesn't want to ruin his families vacation.

Post by **pienmash** » June 28, 2013, 8:53 am

He did take a job under strict guidelines ,,, what he was doing or knew was going on was wrong ,,, should he have come out the closet and is he a traitor ?? .. the Yanks will obviously say yes ,, the Ruskies and Chi*** will say hes done nowt wrong and all others dont give a flying fig ....

America now trying to put trade pressure on countries he may go to like Equador ... and Venewella ... while the Russians just keep given America the finger ... interesting how this pans out after all was so love dovey at the recent G8 !!

Post by **WBU ALUM** » June 28, 2013, 9:12 am

Usually a person's political ideology and conscience determines how they feel about such things -- "Hero or Traitor?".

Traitor or Whistle-Blower?

Terrorist of Freedom Fighter?

All I know is that Obama loved whistle-blowers if they were ratting out big business or Bush. I don't know enough about what has happened in Snowden's case to make an educated analysis of it. For now, I'll leave it to the experts to decide.

Post by **BigBubba** » June 28, 2013, 9:46 am

He swore to an oath. There were many avenues he could have taken under the government endorsed "whistle blowers act" to expose wrong doings or doers. Plus the always eager various media outlets. If his intentions were genuine I don't think he would have ever been convicted by a jury of his peers and we could have had a forum to really hear the full story. Strange that he would even consider Cuba. Does he want to check himself into Guantanamo?!

Post by **udonmarc** » June 28, 2013, 10:05 am

He doesn't get to make his own, personal and independent decision about whether the government is doing things it shouldn't. There are provisions to protect legitimate whistle blowers, as Bubba mentioned, and there are many sympathetic members of Congress (as we've seen in the press recently) to whom he could have expressed his concerns. Stealing documents and revealing state secrets is illegal. He should be prosecuted under the laws which he scorned.

Post by **WBU ALUM** » June 28, 2013, 10:38 am

Dr. HFH wrote:He doesn't get to make his own, personal and independent decision about whether the government is doing things it shouldn't. There are provisions to protect legitimate whistle blowers, as Bubba mentioned, and there are many sympathetic members of Congress (as we've seen in the press recently) to whom he could have expressed his concerns. Stealing documents and revealing state secrets is illegal. He should be prosecuted under the laws which he scorned.

While all of what you say is true, I was responding to the question in the title. Because of the terms used in the subject line, he could actually be both a hero and a traitor. That asks merely for an opinion, and it's kind of cloudy.

If he violated his oath, stole documents and revealed state secrets that would damage US security, then he must be prepared to face the music. If he exposed wrong-doing, then those who ordered the wrong-doing should be prepared to face that music.

Maybe a better question should have been "Should he be prosecuted or not?" He could still be prosecuted and be hero or traitor depending on who is viewing.

Post by **fatbob** » June 28, 2013, 11:30 am

Dr. HFH wrote: by Dr. HFH » June 28, 2013, 10:05 am

He doesn't get to make his own, personal and independent decision about whether the government is doing things it shouldn't. There are provisions to protect legitimate whistle blowers, as Bubba mentioned, and there are many sympathetic members of Congress (as we've seen in the press recently) to whom he could have expressed his concerns. Stealing documents and revealing state secrets is illegal. He should be prosecuted under the laws which he scorned.

Sorry but he just did! Is invading another country legal? I am thankful to those that have a conscience and no right from wrong and expose those concerned to maybe put a stop to atrocities, he has condemned himself for life by speaking out. Big brother might just have to become answerable, might explain Obama's silence, he doesn't want to open the can of worms to the public, it might just be very very dirty.

Post by **fdimike** » June 28, 2013, 12:00 pm

The "whistle blower Act" is so full of holes and is so weakmthat it's realyy useless. Snowden did in fact use the media - The Guardian & Washington Post. Obama while proclaiming to like whistleblowers has prosecuted many already. The FISA Court is supposed to be overseeing these types of programs but this secret court has become nothing but a "rubber stamp" for government programs. Congress for what's worth has also been muzzled by laws preventing disclosure. The communications agencies ie. ATT, Google etc have also been muzzled preventing then from disclosing anything about the surveillance warrants as well as the NSA programs they were forced to participate in.
The NSA has a long history of this type of illegal/quasilegal surveillance. I think Snowden followed his conscience and revealed what he thought was wrong to the media in the hopes of allowing some true debate about the subject.
No as far as I know knows where he is going. The countries mentioned do not have an extradion treaty with the US.
Snowden brings to mind a young American airman - Lonnie Franks who revealed the then secret/illegal bombing program in Laos orchestrated by the Pentagon. To the best of my recollection he was not prosecuted. I see no reason to prosecute the young man.

Post by **fdimike** » June 28, 2013, 12:17 pm

The NY Times is reporting that Obama is now going after it's 8th leaker. This time the person is a retired general. The Obama administration has prosecuted 7 individuas already under the way outdated espionage act. All previous presidents combined only prosecuted 3 individuals.

Post by **jimboLV** » June 28, 2013, 12:29 pm

Most definitely a traitor, and he knows it. Why else would he flee to China before revealing whatever it was that he revealed. He knew he was breaking the law, he just didn't want to suffer the consequences.

I am dumbfounded by the number of people who are shocked that the government actually spies on people. Where have they been? It's been going on in this country ever since the days of George Washington (see Benedict Arnold). They just didn't have computers in those days.

I am certain that The US government (and most governments in the world) are engaged in a lot more spying and many other activities that would shock most people if they knew about it. He had all kinds of avenues that he could follow which would not put him in danger of prosecution.

Post by **LilRed** » June 28, 2013, 12:46 pm

Snowden, was either a dupe or a paid spy.

Man did not have the creds, or, even a proven track record of loyality. I agree he should given a fair trial, just as soon as the prosecutors are ready. I think we must also find out why he was cleared, and, put into such a sensitive position, Somebody did a boo boo...

In the meantime, what do you reckon he's been doing with his new found friends??? The appearance does NOT look good.

And, doncha just love Putin?... "A tasty morsel for any intelligence service in the world..."

Ol' "Wild Bill" Donovan, Colby, et. al., must be spinning in their graves...

FDIM:

Did you know there was a "new" Whistleblower Protection Act that went into effect about 2 years ago? It, SUPPOSEDLY, tightened the protections for Whistleblowers. It is known as the "No Fear Act". The rapidity with which the DOS folks claimed WB status, suggests that in passing "No Fear" protections, we inadvertantly shot ourselves in the security foot.

The bad guys are very smart. I'm wondering if they saw the potential weakness in the "No Fear Act", and are now exploiting it? They are more than capable. (Of course, we, and particularly da Brits, are really good at this stuff too... Fully capable of executing a "trojan horse" kinda thing.)

Some of our emotionally disturbed members seem to share a whole lot of commonality with Assange in his puerile condemnation of President Obama... "A man's known by the company he keeps."

Let's bring Snowden back, NOW, before he can do any more damage. Let's try him for the crimes he's already charged with.

If he's acquitted, he's a free man. If not, he's likely do some real major prison time.

But, let's NOT label him a hero, before we figure out whether or not he's a traitor who committed espionage during war time. Treason during war is a capital offense, no?

ATB

How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?