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Laan Yaa Mo
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » December 16, 2010, 8:15 pm

Thanks. However, it does seem that more than a few posters believe that the United States is the only country that has committed irregularities, war crimes, and that if not for Wikileaks the world would still be living in a never never land of innocence in which U.S. companies could play havoc with the lives and values of all others. I am just waiting for someone to condemn Tony Blair and include Great Britain, along with the Americans, as the key elements creating disorder in the world. However, for the moment, the anti-U.S. rhetoric rules.

The anti-transparency card has been heavily played by a number of posters which led me to ask them to name a country that may be a model for transparency.
Last edited by Laan Yaa Mo on December 16, 2010, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Wikileaks

Post by parrot » December 16, 2010, 8:17 pm

"Of all the developed countries, the United States is the only one that does not have foreign news media (ie BBC, Aljazeera, etc.) widely available to the masses. One cannot turn on non-cable TV and watch these networks. One cannot get basic cable and watch these networks. The news that is consumed is almost entirely homegrown. In this sense, America is effectively no different than China, N Korea, and the former USSR"

No wonder the folks in the US are so ignorant! It's a wonder anyone in the US has a clue about what's going on in the world. At least it's heartening to know that people in other developed countries temper their locally-produced news with that from ABC/NPR/PBS/BBC/Aljazeera/CNN, and just to be sure they're getting the straight scoop on what's what in Thailand, a bit of Channel 3. I'm sure the people in China, NK, and Russia no longer feel cheated when it comes to the news.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 16, 2010, 9:42 pm

For those of you who condemn America consistantly and call Americans Ignorant as in the above post....can i ask you a question......If America wernt around where do you think the world would be now? Ill tell you, first of all we'd all be speaking German, secondly if that particular part of history didnt happen, we'd be all ruled by Islamic law.

Certainly America isnt perfect and like EVERY country had is problems but you know what, given the alternative, I know where my support lies!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by arjay » December 16, 2010, 9:56 pm

Parrot, you missed the Huffington Post. ;)

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by tigerryan » December 16, 2010, 11:47 pm

Jack S I just looked at the video you posted I have the same comments as before, it lacks context the van appears to me to be recovering wounded from the same gang that just got blasted. I did not see any kids in the van did you? I respect the fact that some people would like a more compassionate response to wounded enemy combatents but when you have RPGs laying around and your troops are in range "on your knees with your hands in the air" is the only way to even pretend to save your skin, running for cover or trying to escape in a van means your still fighting. War is dirty and these "reporter" guy were playing in on and around fire and got burnt. They should have just waited for the Americans or the Iraqi military to clean up the wounded they appear to have been on the way at the end of the video.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 16, 2010, 11:56 pm

DermotC wrote:For those of you who condemn America consistantly and call Americans Ignorant as in the above post....can i ask you a question......If America wernt around where do you think the world would be now? Ill tell you, first of all we'd all be speaking German, secondly if that particular part of history didnt happen, we'd be all ruled by Islamic law.

Certainly America isnt perfect and like EVERY country had is problems but you know what, given the alternative, I know where my support lies!
Point of fact: America existed prior to WWI and WWII. You would have to go back to the Revolution. In that case, "if America was not around" we'd be speaking English. Duh. ;)

So, by attempting to make your point proves the ignorant American point of my prior post and makes the case of my recent and continuing dopey American comments made in other threads.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 12:38 am

jackspratt wrote:Tilo your question has been answered (indirectly) in numerous posts on this thread - including questioning its relevance, which I agree with.

It is a straw man - put up to be knocked down by yourself. Of course no country is completely transparent, and no-one has called for that.
Co-signed. I would also add that the debate is not about whether or not any organization should be able to publish stolen government documents. That debate was addressed and settled by the SCOTUS in the case of the Pentagon Papers. A newspaper reporter photocopied thousands of documents and published a full analysis of the documents and the excerpts of the documents which proved that the catalyst for America invading Vietnam was a complete and utter fabrication perpetrated and perpetuated by the US government. In that case, the SCOTUS ruled in favor of exactly what Wikileaks is doing: exposing lies.

The Wikileaks debate is about:

Why does it take a Wikileaks organization to do the job of the traditional Press? The framers of the Constitution specifically included provisions for a strong and robust press to hold the government accountable to the People (point: "the People" is used when referring to the Constitution. "Masses" is used when referring to the general population.).

Why has the domestic Press stopped being robust and aggressive in serving out its function as the eyes and ears of the People; and since it has and other (foreign) organizations fill that need or provide that service to the public, should such organizations be protected or persecuted?

If the right of the organization is protected and the government is unable to prosecute, then should governments seek to persecute and prosecute the employees of the organization in whatever flimsy way they can find?

In the Right Wignut World, the screaming (because debates require facts and reasoning) is about "terroristic journalism", espionage, and all manner of other affronts which totally miss the target but make for better ratings and more opportunities to rant and spread dopey Right Wignut propaganda.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 17, 2010, 12:39 am

Khondahm,

I think you know the exact point Im making but try to use silly rhetoric to confuse the point. Its rediculous to say that Americans are ignorant and dopey. So you know every American on the face of the planet do you?

Fact, America is still the greatest country on the face of the planet and God help us all when that ends because look whats coming up behind.....So your prefer China, Russia or maybe even Iran? C'mon, as i said before and maintain America is far from perfect but look at the alternatives. I prefer to live in a world where I can wear the clothing I want, vote, disagree with governments of democratic countries and voice that without fearing that Ill go to Jail for the rest of my life or worse, executed!

Its too easy to be Anti American these days because of the media in the west.

I know Ill probably be given a reallt hard time about this post but you know what Id rather that than not being able to have an opinion at all!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 1:21 am

parrot wrote:No wonder the folks in the US are so ignorant! It's a wonder anyone in the US has a clue about what's going on in the world. At least it's heartening to know that people in other developed countries temper their locally-produced news with that from ABC/NPR/PBS/BBC/Aljazeera/CNN, and just to be sure they're getting the straight scoop on what's what in Thailand, a bit of Channel 3. I'm sure the people in China, NK, and Russia no longer feel cheated when it comes to the news.
Yes, that is why. The relatively few Americans who tear themselves away from reality shows and Dancing with the Stars long enough to accidentally consume news are consuming sound bite morsels from perhaps different platters but prepared in the same kitchen and increasingly (due to consolidations in American media) by the same chef.

Personally speaking, the Board may have observed a more aggressive tone in my posts since the 2010 elections. This is because I am sick and tired of suffering dopey Right Wignut Americans. They have been allowed to spread their ignorance and repeat bullsht talking points which have no basis in fact without being challenged long enough. They are the visible problem with America. The invisible problem with America are those who know better, but let them get away with it anyway. No more. I will beat the head in of any Right Wignut with facts (in their proper context) andnot be polite about it. These are ignorant and stupid people and I am fckn tired of them ruining my country.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
- Edmund Burke, "Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents"

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
- Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"

Wikileaks must exist to expose lies because the Press no longer does.

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Laan Yaa Mo
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » December 17, 2010, 3:57 am

KHONDAHM wrote:
parrot wrote:


Wikileaks must exist to expose lies because the Press no longer does.
Well, it may be that the American and Thai press did not report anything about the Wikileaks, but the media (newspapers, tv, radio) in Canada sure did. Moreover, the press here exposes lies by politicians, company executives and others all the time. Once the press got hold of the leaked material in the U.S. (New York Times, Washington Post), did they not publish some, if not all of the, material?

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 17, 2010, 4:14 am

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
- Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"

Let me ask you a question, What did Clinton do when America was attacked countless times during his presidency? Answer Nothing much, Oh yes he was a left wing democrat.....

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 4:20 am

DermotC wrote:I think you know the exact point Im making but try to use silly rhetoric to confuse the point. Its rediculous to say that Americans are ignorant and dopey. So you know every American on the face of the planet do you?
Point: "So you know every American on the face of the planet do you?" is a rhetorical question. Do not be hypocritical in the very next sentence when making your argument.

That aside, yes, I understand your point, but you mistake or misread mine. Nowhere will you find a post by me condemning ALL Americans. That would be stupid as it would also include myself and those of us who I know who are not ignorant and dopey.

That said, I do assert that my criticism does apply to MOST Americans. The assertion is based upon the fact that most Americans who are eligible to vote, and therefore determine America's tone and direction, either do not vote, do not vote having been well-informed (which includes a solid understanding of the issues and impact), do not have a thorough understanding of how America government operates (and much less how it operates within and around the world), vote based on lies, misrepresentations, and revisionism, and/or remain disinterested. To be more succinct, I have posted either here or on another thread (I believe it was the "What Now" thread) that I define dopey Americans as Republicans who subscribe to the Right Wignut rhetoric and those who are apathetic or have been shouted or scared into silence or conformity by those same Right Wignuts.

@Jackspratt
BRING BACK THE BOOTY!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 4:23 am

DermotC wrote:Let me ask you a question, What did Clinton do when America was attacked countless times during his presidency? Answer Nothing much, Oh yes he was a left wing democrat.....
You want to talk Clinton. Sure, no problem. Start a new thread and state your case against his Presidency. I would be happy to slap you about with facts. This thread is about Wikileaks.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 4:34 am

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:Once the press got hold of the leaked material in the U.S. (New York Times, Washington Post), did they not publish some, if not all of the, material?
Yes, they did. However, the frustration is three-fold (at least):

1. That the government intentionally lied about so many events
2. That had the Press been more robust in FINDING the truth rather than simply publicize the lies being fed to them, we would have known much of this previously when knowing could have made a difference in public opinion and the way we reacted or proceeded
3. That when reports do shine light on lies, they are intentionally buried, dismissed, or killed or the reporters are attacked, smeared, or otherwise beaten into obscurity so that the report is not given the weight and publicity it deserves

Currently, these organizations are essentially turning in late homework that was obtained from a classmate who did all the real research.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 17, 2010, 4:40 am

Im just responding to your comments Khondahm. Your points two posts above this one are well taken and hard to disagree with however you cant blame the right wing for Americas troubles as they seem to be the only ones who are willing to do anything about it.

As far as Wiki goes, to me, its like having someones personal thoughts laid out for the world to see. Imagine you said absolutely everything you thought and everyone else did too. What would have happened is the human race is it would have been extinguished years ago. Somethings are better left to the officials who were democratically elected to do so.

You'll also find that the people that complain the most are the ones who cant be bothered to vote and change things. Its the same in every democracy, not just the States. Im no republican and Im no liberal either....your famous American Comedian Chris rock said it best ' Im conservative about some things and Im liberal about others.

Ill have a chat with you on another thread about Clinton as I lived in New York for most of his presidency and by the way I was in Kuwait and Iraq from 2003 until 2006 so maybe Ill be able to give you a different pov, who knows.... Great that we can discuss these things in a civil manner and state our own pov's. The reason for that is because of Countries like the US who as Ive said despite thier many many problems are still a force for good in the world.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 4:55 am

DermotC wrote:...however you cant blame the right wing for Americas troubles as they seem to be the only ones who are willing to do anything about it.
You see, this is the problem. After all that the Republicans have done to destroy America - both blatantly and surreptitiously - people still walk around thinking otherwise when the facts simply do not support such a statement. Are the willing to do "something about it"? Hell, yeah they are. They are willing to do more of the same!

Your statement underscores my point. Why and how could any thinking person who looks at the record ever - I mean EVER - draw such a conclusion to be able to make a statement like that as if it were either a fact or a good thing? It boggles the mind!

Really, you would be hard pressed to actually list things that they are willing to "do about it" that would be good for the country. It is rhetoric. No, wait. It is doublethink and Newspeak. That is exactly what it is; and people are reacting to it exactly as predicted in "1984".

For example, they SAY they are the party of fiscal conservatism and responsibility so that is what you believe to be true - because they say it is true. However, the facts prove the exact opposite to be true. They SAY that tax breaks for the rich is good for the economy and you believe it to be true because they said it is true. However, the facts of the past 10 years prove exactly the opposite to be true. Hell, the architect of Reagan's "Trickle Down Economics" policy and theory even now admits - this past week - that it DID NOT and WILL NOT ever work. But, that is not what they tell you so you do not believe it to be true. 1984.
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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 17, 2010, 4:59 am

Khondahm,

It would seem that the majority of Americas voting public would disagree with you hense the republicans now have a house majority. Thats called democracy my friend. You can scream and shout all you want but a majority is a majority, period!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 5:03 am

DermotC wrote:It would seem that the majority of Americas voting public would disagree with you hense the republicans now have a house majority. Thats called democracy my friend. You can scream and shout all you want but a majority is a majority, period!
And again, you make my "dopey" and "ignorant" American point.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by DermotC » December 17, 2010, 5:09 am

Its now getting funny. What you are talking about then is revolution Khondahm. You are in the minority of voting Americans. You live in a democracy and in a democracy the majority rules, wheather you like it or not! So you are saying that obviously being in the minority that you are right and what Im saying is I dont care if you are right or not, you in a country where democracy rules!

If you are of the opinion that you are right then get out there and get your countrymen to vote democrat in the next election. Thats your ONLY option and as i said no point in banging your head off a brick wall! Democracy rules, end of story!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post by KHONDAHM » December 17, 2010, 5:23 am

Yeah, you are in your own little world and way off topic. I will let you stay there by yourself and ponder what color drapes you may want to hang from the trees.

Anyone wanting to discuss Wikileaks, have at it. Cheers!

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