Child of FOUR years old , can be sued !

[Librarian]

i just copied and pasted this from BBC website -

A New York child can be sued for crashing a bicycle into an elderly pedestrian and causing injuries that led to her death, a judge has ruled.

Juliet Breitman and another child were four years old when they raced their small bicycles on a Manhattan street and ran into Claire Menagh, 87.

Juliet's lawyer had argued Juliet was too young to be held negligent.

The judge disagreed, ruling Juliet's lawyer had presented no evidence she lacked intelligence or maturity.

my view is , whilst it is very tragic that an elderly lady died as a result of the injuries caused by these *infants* , how can 2 , 4 year old children , be expected to understand the mechanisms of going through the legal system , and properly comprehend the legal jargon etc that will ensue .

my topic question is to you readers , what would YOU do to these kids
would you haul them through the courts ?
would you beat the living daylights out of them?
would you lock them in a small cupboard under the stairs as punishment ?

what is a fair punishment to 4 year old for manslaughter by bicycle ?

glad i,m not a lawyer , who has to make a ruling on that issue !

Librarian

[pienmash]

A bloody crazy story Libes - you been on the pop early today ??.......... nar i did see this on BBC world last night - at the time the only thing that crossed my mind was got to be in America AND IT WAS ........ I rest my case

[Librarian]

well Mr Mash - you said , you been on the pop early today ??
could it be this forum has driven me to drink :-"
technically yes and no , some friends , and my brother who is visiting did, in fact make contributions to the Russian Vodka Economy last night -
i vaguely remember winning the pool comp and ringing a bell to spend my winnings ( obviously very drunk ! )
the thing that i am puzzled by , is that i have vague recollections of being hungry at about 3am , and one of my friends telling me he had a (Bookhouse ) takeaway cheese and ham sandwich on his motorbike outside Yellow Bird .
the puzzling thing is , i woke up this morning with salad cream stains on my shirt :-"

sorry for going off topic !

Librarian

[jingjai]

at the time the only thing that crossed my mind was got to be in America AND IT WAS ........ I rest my case

Danny DeVito once asked the question: "What's 500 lawyers at the bottom of the sea"?
Answer: "A good start".

Unfortunately, the judicial system of today in my country will drag this out for years, costing both the taxpayers and the parties involved big $$$. The only people to come out on top will be the lawyers.

In my day, a big cop would have scared the ---- out of me. My father would have given me a good spanking, taken my bike away for a year, and would have made me go to this woman's grave once a week for years and had me sit there and think about what I had done.

[trubrit]

I think parents should be held more accountable for their kids regardless of age. if a child commits an offence that is either illegal or causes damage, then the parents are to blame, either through incorrect training or by neglect. What is the child doing running free without supervision? I would extend this to cover youths up to the age of responsibility, which is in the UK 18.
Here in Thailand if that was the case, maybe you would see less underage motor bike riders .

[semperfiguy]

This one is a hard call Librarian! The information provided is inadequate to determine whether the children acted with malicious intent or premeditation, or was it just purely accidental. In any event the parents of the children should be held accountable for the recklessness of their children. I would say that the parents should be sued for reasonable restitution for the death of the old woman, amount of which should be determined by the particular circumstances related to the life of the decedent, i.e. was she the sole provider for a disabled child, her funeral expenses, etc.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be so quick to hold the children completely innocent just because of their age. The little buggers were born with a predisposition to sin. Just let one get old enough to start talking, and within a few months they are already telling lies...and nobody has to teach them...they do it all by themselves.

Hear the Word of God:

Genesis 8:21
The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.

Proverbs 20:11
Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.

Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

Thank God for the "truth" of HIS WORD! It's "one-stop shopping" for the answer to every problem that we will ever encounter in our lives.

[pienmash]

well Mr Mash - you said , you been on the pop early today ??
could it be this forum has driven me to drink :-"
technically yes and no , some friends , and my brother who is visiting did, in fact make contributions to the Russian Vodka Economy last night -
i vaguely remember winning the pool comp and ringing a bell to spend my winnings ( obviously very drunk ! )
the thing that i am puzzled by , is that i have vague recollections of being hungry at about 3am , and one of my friends telling me he had a (Bookhouse ) takeaway cheese and ham sandwich on his motorbike outside Yellow Bird .
the puzzling thing is , i woke up this morning with salad cream stains on my shirt :-"

sorry for going off topic !

Librarian

ARE YOU SURE they were salad cream stains ??

Back on topic - i totally agree with Jing jai ref the U.S judicial system being a money pit for the lawyers seems you can sue someone for any reason however miniscule nowadays ......... this particular case is so unusal becos of the age of the child , i cant even think of punishment that could or should even be applied unless the kid was pissed or speeding !! we are taking about a 4 year old here so doubt if it was intentional unless the old dear robbed one of the nippers toys ?? pienmash verdict ........ tragic accident ....... punishment not a clue .

[jimboLV]

As usual, the Yank bashers are quick to leap to conclusions without looking at the true facts of the situation. In the first place, the lawsuit was brought against the child (6 years old, not 4 1/2) AND HER PARENTS. The parents tried to get it dismissed because of the child's age, arguing that they should not be held responsible for the child's actions even though they were supervising the child at the time. In other words it was the kid's fault and she's too young to be sued so we're off the hook. Gee, if this works maybe I should teach my 4 year old to pick pockets, steal money out of a till, and if she's caught, too young to be sued and it's not my fault, even though I watched her do it.

Undoubtedly this was a civil case, not criminal, so nobody is talking about punishment, just remuneration for a wrongful death. Although none of the articles say so, I am sure the parents' insurance company required a lawsuit before they would pay up as is usual. That is why you see relatives and best friends suing each other even though they are on good terms. I slip and break my leg on my mother in laws broken stairway, but the her liability insurer will not pay unless I sue her and get a judgment from a court.

I am curious what would happen in similar circumstances in GB or Oz (forget about LOS). Can people get off Scott free just because their child caused an accident, while they were present?

[Librarian]

some interesting points of view here .

the topic was intended as a , what punishment would you give a 4 year old if they accidentally caused the death of someone -
not as an excuse to attack race , religion or nationalities.

this topic is making world news headlines and people all over the world are asking the same question i am - debating a sensitive issue in an adult manner :-"

here on Udon Map , with the collective posting masses , various nationalities and differing points of view , it is a perfect topic to discuss and reason through , suitable retribution .

I,m wandering is it possible here on Udon Map , to post something that will receive only reasoned , inciteful responses , rather than what appears to be a minority group of people who cannot help themselves but attack and derail a thread concerning a serious issue

my hope in posting the topic was to gain some useful points of view , and reasoned perspectives , in order that i may form my own opinion of what is a suitable solution , to this tragic story .

because honestly , i dont know what punishment , if any, the four year / six year olds should be given for accidentally running into an old lady with there bicycles .

i have never been a believer in the notion , you are responsible for someone elses actions . , but that is another topic

the topic is - what punishment would you give a 4 year old if they accidentally caused the death of someone -

Peace

Librarian

[nkstan]

I don't punish children for accidents,period!!!If the child is in the wrong,the parents are responsible for the death,if the child actually caused it!The child is to young to be at fault!

[pienmash]

IMO there isnt a case to punish a 4 year old for what appears a tragic accident ....enuff said

[Sport]

the topic is - what punishment would you give a 4 year old if they accidentally caused the death of someone -

Peace

Librarian

None.

[Frans]

This happen 2 years ago, when the child was 4 years of age!

Even when the come with a civil case against the parent of the child (now 6 years old) she was only 4 when it happen!

So how can you punish a child fore this?

What gone happen now, the children&grandchildren of the dead lady will pursuing the parents and get what the want on $

But why the parents of the child don’t brings the old lady children and grandchildren to court, because she was walking on the step side as a ‘non accompanied’ 87 year old woman with not even 1 of children&grandchildren beside here to take attention?

[jackspratt]

As usual, the Yank bashers are quick to leap to conclusions without looking at the true facts of the situation. In the first place, the lawsuit was brought against the child (6 years old, not 4 1/2) AND HER PARENTS. The parents tried to get it dismissed because of the child's age, arguing that they should not be held responsible for the child's actions even though they were supervising the child at the time. In other words it was the kid's fault and she's too young to be sued so we're off the hook. Gee, if this works maybe I should teach my 4 year old to pick pockets, steal money out of a till, and if she's caught, too young to be sued and it's not my fault, even though I watched her do it.

Undoubtedly this was a civil case, not criminal, so nobody is talking about punishment, just remuneration for a wrongful death. Although none of the articles say so, I am sure the parents' insurance company required a lawsuit before they would pay up as is usual. That is why you see relatives and best friends suing each other even though they are on good terms. I slip and break my leg on my mother in laws broken stairway, but the her liability insurer will not pay unless I sue her and get a judgment from a court.

I am curious what would happen in similar circumstances in GB or Oz (forget about LOS). Can people get off Scott free just because their child caused an accident, while they were present?

If you teach your child to to pick pockets etc, you are criminally liable, and should suffer the consequences.

Has anyone suggested the parents of this 4yo have taught or encouraged her to run into little old ladies on the street?

Fortunately Australia has an enlightened criminal and civil justice system. We don't execute minors, or the intellectually impaired, and we also don't hold young children (or their parents) responsible for accidents they may have been involved in.

[trubrit]

I don't punish children for accidents,period!!!If the child is in the wrong,the parents are responsible for the death,if the child actually caused it!The child is to young to be at fault!

I think that fairly sums up my point of view. Of course you cannot punish a child of that age for causing the death . I am sure they wouldn't be aware their actions could have such a tragic ending . But , and this is a big but .The parents should have been fully aware that letting them ride their bycycles in that manner could have serious consequences, not least for their own kids safety . That in my view is grossly negligent of them for which they should be held accountable , both financially and morally . Hopefully they in turn will make their kids realise we all have a duty to conduct ourselves in a manner that doesn't intrude on the rights of others regardless of age .

[LoongLee]

I consider myself a person/parent that favors tough discipline for children but could not find it within me to impose a harsh punishment upon a 4/6 year old for this accident. IMHO, to brand a child with the guilt of the ladies death for the rest of their life would be tatamount to pschological torture.

[Sport]

Some posters on here must have been 7y, 8y or older when they were born. Whilst not negating the fact that a lady was tragically killed, it was an accident, they do happen through some sort of misadventure and no-one can be held responsible. So why try to attribute some sort of blame to a party who was not responsible, certainly you cannot shift the blame onto the parents in this case. The parents for all we know, could have instilled daily to their children the importance of society standards.

The kids would have said, Yes Mum, Yes Dad, we understand. Then the kid 3 doors down later comes to the front yard and says to the learned kid, 'come on race yu to the shop for an ice cream' all the safety has just been thrown out the window. Kids will be kids, that cannot be avoided, we possibly all grew up this way, not unless you were a kid and wrapped up in cotton wool till the age of 10 and turned out to be a miserable sod all your life.

[nkstan]

Someone is responsible!The victim could have been responsible by his actions causing his own death or the parents would be responsible for the lack of supervision of a 4 year old!

The only way that fault would not be assigned,would be if it was unavoidable!

[21again]

Maybe not as a punishment, but by reason of common sense i would deprive the child from riding her bike in public until she had mastered the art of cycling.

[21again]

But in the states there is also a case of a 4 year old boy who shot his babysitter with a shotgun after he had accidently stood on his foot.
His father is quoted "I"ve taught my son to respect guns," he said. "It was a pure accident."
Now come on every case is different, but normally someone is responsible along the way, in both these cases the parents.