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AlexO
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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 9, 2020, 7:38 am

tinpeeba wrote:
June 8, 2020, 2:17 am
"PeeBa
You forgot to mention that the WHO failed to caveat their advice of 3 months ago to tell Joe Public that fabric masks as opposed to medical masks would be beneficial in helping prevent the spread. They managed to do it 3 months or more into the pandemic (what has changed). I would also suggest that the 'Guardian' is a less biased and more reliable source of information than 21st Century Wire (and the Guardian is very near the bottom of the pile in my view)"


AlexO
I agree that the Guardian is a less biased and more reliable source of information than 21st Century Wire.

The Guardian's article "WHO advises public to wear face masks when unable to distance" of 5th June 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-over-60s explains the WHO rationale on face coverings:

"Until now the global body has been reluctant to advocate the wearing of face coverings by the public because of limited evidence that they offer protection. There were also fears of a rush on masks leading to shortages of medical-grade versions for health workers. The new guidance follows research commissioned by the organisation into what sort of mask could protect people in the community. It is still unknown whether the wearers are protected, say its experts, but the new design it advocates does give protection to other people if properly used. Masks are no substitute for physical distancing and hand hygiene, it was emphasised. Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, technical lead of Covid-19 response and the head of emerging diseases and zoonosis unit at WHO, expressed concerns about masks offering a false sense of security at protests, such as those taking place over the killing of George Floyd in the US. “There are many gatherings taking place across the globe for different reasons. People who put a homemade mask on feel a sense of protection. It is a false sense of protection,” she said.
“Masks must be part of a comprehensive strategy. They do not work alone. They must be used with a number of measures. I want to stress that anyone who is unwell should be at home. They should be tested, their contact should be identified and they should be in quarantine.”"

The WHO previous interim guidance https://www.humanitarianresponse.info/s ... 3-eng1.pdf
stated:
"Type of Mask
WHO stresses that it is critical that medical masks and
respirators be prioritized for health care workers.
The use of masks made of other materials (e.g., cotton
fabric), also known as nonmedical masks, in the community
setting has not been well evaluated. There is no current
evidence to make a recommendation for or against their use
in this setting.
WHO is collaborating with research and development
partners to better understand the effectiveness and efficiency
of nonmedical masks. WHO is also strongly encouraging
countries that issue recommendations for the use of masks in
healthy people in the community to conduct research on this
critical topic. WHO will update its guidance when new
evidence becomes available. "
Pee Ba, your point is? It took the WHO 3 months into a devastating pandemic to finally come up with a maybe aye, maybe no statement. Caveates like "false sense of protection" are just BS. Masks either work or dont work. Who is correct The General or WHO.



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Re: UK News

Post by tinpeeba » June 9, 2020, 4:27 pm

Boris Johnson's government has worst approval rating in the world for handling coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... virus.html

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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 10, 2020, 12:28 am

tinpeeba wrote:
June 9, 2020, 4:27 pm
Boris Johnson's government has worst approval rating in the world for handling coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... virus.html
The Government don't frontline handle Covid, that's the job of the NHS (the medical experts) It has now been proved that the billions spent on management of the NHS is a complete waste as these managers have no idea what to do in a crisis. How this is a Boris problem?

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Re: UK News

Post by tinpeeba » June 10, 2020, 2:53 am

AlexO wrote:
June 9, 2020, 7:38 am
tinpeeba wrote:
June 8, 2020, 2:17 am
"PeeBa
You forgot to mention that the WHO failed to caveat their advice of 3 months ago to tell Joe Public that fabric masks as opposed to medical masks would be beneficial in helping prevent the spread. They managed to do it 3 months or more into the pandemic (what has changed). I would also suggest that the 'Guardian' is a less biased and more reliable source of information than 21st Century Wire (and the Guardian is very near the bottom of the pile in my view)"


AlexO
I agree that the Guardian is a less biased and more reliable source of information than 21st Century Wire.

The Guardian's article "WHO advises public to wear face masks when unable to distance" of 5th June 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-over-60s explains the WHO rationale on face coverings:

"Until now the global body has been reluctant to advocate the wearing of face coverings by the public because of limited evidence that they offer protection. There were also fears of a rush on masks leading to shortages of medical-grade versions for health workers. The new guidance follows research commissioned by the organisation into what sort of mask could protect people in the community. It is still unknown whether the wearers are protected, say its experts, but the new design it advocates does give protection to other people if properly used. Masks are no substitute for physical distancing and hand hygiene, it was emphasised. Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, technical lead of Covid-19 response and the head of emerging diseases and zoonosis unit at WHO, expressed concerns about masks offering a false sense of security at protests, such as those taking place over the killing of George Floyd in the US. “There are many gatherings taking place across the globe for different reasons. People who put a homemade mask on feel a sense of protection. It is a false sense of protection,” she said.
“Masks must be part of a comprehensive strategy. They do not work alone. They must be used with a number of measures. I want to stress that anyone who is unwell should be at home. They should be tested, their contact should be identified and they should be in quarantine.”"

The WHO previous interim guidance https://www.humanitarianresponse.info/s ... 3-eng1.pdf
stated:
"Type of Mask
WHO stresses that it is critical that medical masks and
respirators be prioritized for health care workers.
The use of masks made of other materials (e.g., cotton
fabric), also known as nonmedical masks, in the community
setting has not been well evaluated. There is no current
evidence to make a recommendation for or against their use
in this setting.
WHO is collaborating with research and development
partners to better understand the effectiveness and efficiency
of nonmedical masks. WHO is also strongly encouraging
countries that issue recommendations for the use of masks in
healthy people in the community to conduct research on this
critical topic. WHO will update its guidance when new
evidence becomes available. "
Pee Ba, your point is? It took the WHO 3 months into a devastating pandemic to finally come up with a maybe aye, maybe no statement. Caveates like "false sense of protection" are just BS. Masks either work or dont work. Who is correct The General or WHO.
The point is that new evidence emerged showing that masks can give some protection to other people if properly used and that prompted the WHO and other public health authorities to reconsider whether the public should wear masks.
But it is not simply a matter of "masks either work or they don't work", the type of mask is an important consideration as is the environment in which they are used. The degree of protection depends on the type of mask with medical or surgical grade providing the most and cloth or home made masks providing the least.
I think the WHO is correct to caveat that masks are no substitute for physical distancing and hand hygiene, and that they can give wearers a false sense of security.

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Re: UK News

Post by GT93 » June 10, 2020, 3:24 pm

Cobra, not Sage, meetings AlexO. I think Gordon Brown chaired all the early Cobra meetings as foot and mouth spread in the UK.

There's speculation that masks have worked well in Japan.
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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 10, 2020, 3:52 pm

Its SAGE meetings 93 not COBRA. When was the last COBRA meeting? Gordon Browns handling of the Foot and Mouth breakout was immaculate wasn't it. The Mainland EU nations have been living with F&M for many years but Broonie decided to kill virtually the whole nations stock of bovines including some really rare unreplaceable herds, traumatising hundreds and thousands of people who had to carry out his insane orders. Did not ever see Broonie visit the slaughter fields or the fire trenches, great leadership, not.

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Re: UK News

Post by GT93 » June 10, 2020, 4:24 pm

At least Brown was on the bridge. Johnson wasn't:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... a-21889286
An adviser has blasted Boris Johnson for skipping five Cobra meetings on coronavirus as the outbreak in China worsened and Covid-19 spread around the world ... The Prime Minister is said to have missed the first meeting on January 24, which lasted an hour, and then four more as the virus became a massive threat to the UK.

Mr Johnson attended his first Cobra meeting about the new strain of coronavirus on March 2 - five weeks after the first one - as the UK had about three dozen confirmed cases.
Giving you a break from The Guardian. It was all over rover by the time Johnson turned up.
Lock 'em up - Eastman, Giuliani, Senator Graham, Meadows and Trump

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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 10, 2020, 6:08 pm

GT93 wrote:
June 10, 2020, 4:24 pm
At least Brown was on the bridge. Johnson wasn't:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... a-21889286
An adviser has blasted Boris Johnson for skipping five Cobra meetings on coronavirus as the outbreak in China worsened and Covid-19 spread around the world ... The Prime Minister is said to have missed the first meeting on January 24, which lasted an hour, and then four more as the virus became a massive threat to the UK.

Mr Johnson attended his first Cobra meeting about the new strain of coronavirus on March 2 - five weeks after the first one - as the UK had about three dozen confirmed cases.
Giving you a break from The Guardian. It was all over rover by the time Johnson turned up.
So you quote an unnamed source in an article from a Newspaper that is just slightly less left than your favourite rag when it wants to be (depends on what sells that week). Have you ever been in a management position 93?? You have department managers to attend these types of meetings, who's job it is, is to prepare reports and recommendations for the boss/bosses who will then decide if the recommended actions from the experts can be a benefit to the nation. Just have another look at your quoted article, the medical experts were predicting 400K/380K deaths attributable to Covid, 'so far' around 10% (I emphasise so far) is the correct number. The last COBRA meeting was held 16th April, one before was 23 March. SAGE, Special Advisory Group Epidemic are held every week because there is no need for Military, Special Forces etc that make up the COBRA teams. Your pathetic hate campaign against Boris is really becoming immensely boring.

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Re: UK News

Post by tamada » June 10, 2020, 10:39 pm

AlexO wrote:
June 10, 2020, 6:08 pm
GT93 wrote:
June 10, 2020, 4:24 pm
At least Brown was on the bridge. Johnson wasn't:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... a-21889286
An adviser has blasted Boris Johnson for skipping five Cobra meetings on coronavirus as the outbreak in China worsened and Covid-19 spread around the world ... The Prime Minister is said to have missed the first meeting on January 24, which lasted an hour, and then four more as the virus became a massive threat to the UK.

Mr Johnson attended his first Cobra meeting about the new strain of coronavirus on March 2 - five weeks after the first one - as the UK had about three dozen confirmed cases.
Giving you a break from The Guardian. It was all over rover by the time Johnson turned up.
So you quote an unnamed source in an article from a Newspaper that is just slightly less left than your favourite rag when it wants to be (depends on what sells that week). Have you ever been in a management position 93?? You have department managers to attend these types of meetings, who's job it is, is to prepare reports and recommendations for the boss/bosses who will then decide if the recommended actions from the experts can be a benefit to the nation. Just have another look at your quoted article, the medical experts were predicting 400K/380K deaths attributable to Covid, 'so far' around 10% (I emphasise so far) is the correct number. The last COBRA meeting was held 16th April, one before was 23 March. SAGE, Special Advisory Group Epidemic are held every week because there is no need for Military, Special Forces etc that make up the COBRA teams. Your pathetic hate campaign against Boris is really becoming immensely boring.
Not half as boring as the repeated yack about this PM's infinitely qualified team of adjutants and underlings being more than capable of keeping him on his toes, up to date and on the same page. Even this farcical round-robin of cabinet members doing the daily death count for the media only instills a sense of fragmented he-said, she-said with the roster artfully crafted to avoid placing Hancock, Pratel and others back on the firing line. Scotland's First Minister, through delivering almost all these daily updates in-person, does give a far better sense of being somewhat in control. At least she had the sense to eventually appreciate that her senior medical advisor had cocked up badly and let her go. Boris hasn't recovered from the public mauling he received on the Select Committee's roast a few weeks back and is for the most part invisible.

As Marina Hyde suggested, the only bits about being British PM that Johnson really wanted was the resounding victory of getting the job and the adulation, recognition and gravy train that comes after leaving office. Delivering the all-important middle bit seems beyond his ken at the moment.

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Re: UK News

Post by stattointhailand » June 10, 2020, 11:42 pm

as a ex manager during my working life, I have to agree that you have assistants and deputys to attend meetings and report back, however any manager worth half his salary would make a point of attending all the important meetings himself (first Cobra included), taking back up with you if required, or if like Johnson you are just unable to comprehend what is going on

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Re: UK News

Post by tinpeeba » June 11, 2020, 1:46 am

Coronavirus: 'Earlier lockdown would have halved death toll'
The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK would have been halved if lockdown had been introduced a week earlier, a former government adviser has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52995064

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Re: UK News

Post by GT93 » June 11, 2020, 1:56 am

No surprise there. NZ's Prime Minster was advised by NZ officials in March that if we didn't lock down inside a week we'd suffer Italy's fate.

Johnson unable to comprehend? Yep, that will be some of it. He was shaking hands with Covid 19 patients. Starmer has also exposed Johnson isn't too bright. And not that interested in the hard graft bits of the job? That too. Marina Hyde was on the mark. He's a shocker.

And the UK isn't currently holding him to account. The history books will.
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Re: UK News

Post by Khun Paul » June 11, 2020, 7:06 am

It is so easy NOW in hindsight to question whatever happened , none of us were at those briefings and none of us are responsible for the outcome. No country is the same as we have found out. Deaths occurred and some may well say to little to late, others will say why shutdown, live through it as we do with Flu each and every year.

What amazes me on this forum how a man who to my knowledge is sitting in NZ, talking about other countries as if he knows them, he is entitled to his opinions, flawed though they maybe.

The problem with this Pandemic was, it frightened people and politicians alike and they had to be seen to do something whatever that something was. We as human beings in our top of the evolutionary tree spot, deciding that ALL living things except HUMANS are on the menu caused the problem in the first place . So in reality we collectively as a species are responsible . Blame whomsoever you like but first look in the mirror and make damn sure you are not part of the problem even am miniscule part.

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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2020, 7:31 am

GT93 wrote:
June 11, 2020, 1:56 am
No surprise there. NZ's Prime Minster was advised by NZ officials in March that if we didn't lock down inside a week we'd suffer Italy's fate.

Johnson unable to comprehend? Yep, that will be some of it. He was shaking hands with Covid 19 patients. Starmer has also exposed Johnson isn't too bright. And not that interested in the hard graft bits of the job? That too. Marina Hyde was on the mark. He's a shocker.

And the UK isn't currently holding him to account. The history books will.
So NZ lockdown in March (back end of their summer) and they saved themselves from a devastating epidemic. The UK lockdown when?? In March, but difference was that this was still technically winter and therefor seasonal flu etc still raging. This means NZ Prime Minister is Good, UK Prime Minister is Bad???

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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2020, 7:40 am

stattointhailand wrote:
June 10, 2020, 11:42 pm
as a ex manager during my working life, I have to agree that you have assistants and deputys to attend meetings and report back, however any manager worth half his salary would make a point of attending all the important meetings himself (first Cobra included), taking back up with you if required, or if like Johnson you are just unable to comprehend what is going on
You claim to have been an ex manager so you will know that your diary is mostly full every day. He was meeting with a Chinese delegation that day and also attended the ratification of the UK leaving the EU all things that had been arranged for weeks/months. So he should have just cancelled these and went to a quickly arranged meeting where he could have no real input.??? Unfortunately for you I am able to comprehend and can see right through your little drum beating campaign. You lost in December and you will probably be pushing up daisies before you ever see a Marxist crowd in Government again.

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Re: UK News

Post by RLTrader » June 11, 2020, 7:47 am

UKC News: Inside Britain’s Shadow State, Using COVID Crisis to ‘Reset’ Society
As the Coronavirus crisis winds down, government officials remain desperate to squeeze every last drop of leverage to advance more control policies during the extended ‘lockdown’ phase, and to use the illusion of a continual crisis as convenient cover to ‘reshape government’ and implement further “New Normal” social engineering measures, keep schools shut, as well as kill-out what is left the SME and independent business sector. However, behind the facade of a clapping Boris Johnson, an opaque shadow government is busy running COVID propaganda operations targeting the public, as well as restructuring the NHS – not for COVID, but more likely for future privatization of health services in Britain, and also prepare for the coming Fourth Industrial Revolution. All this and much more.

Co-hosts Brian Gerrish, Mike Robinson and Alex Thomson with the midweek round-up.
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/06/10/ ... t-society/

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Re: UK News

Post by GT93 » June 11, 2020, 8:04 am

That's very generous of you to Mr Johnson KP. I enjoy the Map's interesting threads about the UK. They're fun threads.
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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2020, 8:15 am

tinpeeba wrote:
June 11, 2020, 1:46 am
Coronavirus: 'Earlier lockdown would have halved death toll'
The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK would have been halved if lockdown had been introduced a week earlier, a former government adviser has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52995064
PeeBa
Its always those with hindsight that say these things. Where were they at the start of this epidemic shouting about shutting down the Country in February???. These are unprecedented times and people sniping away with the benefit of fore mentioned hindsight is just political drum beating. Same as Starmer, first speech as leader of the Marxist Party, "I will lead a Constructive Opposition" Forgotten about 5 minutes later and just scoring points doing what comes easier, criticizing. Can anyone provide in one very short answer show anything that LIEBOUR have come up with as an alternative response to the virus crisis.

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Re: UK News

Post by AlexO » June 11, 2020, 8:18 am

Khun Paul wrote:
June 11, 2020, 7:06 am
It is so easy NOW in hindsight to question whatever happened , none of us were at those briefings and none of us are responsible for the outcome. No country is the same as we have found out. Deaths occurred and some may well say to little to late, others will say why shutdown, live through it as we do with Flu each and every year.

What amazes me on this forum how a man who to my knowledge is sitting in NZ, talking about other countries as if he knows them, he is entitled to his opinions, flawed though they maybe.

The problem with this Pandemic was, it frightened people and politicians alike and they had to be seen to do something whatever that something was. We as human beings in our top of the evolutionary tree spot, deciding that ALL living things except HUMANS are on the menu caused the problem in the first place . So in reality we collectively as a species are responsible . Blame whomsoever you like but first look in the mirror and make damn sure you are not part of the problem even am miniscule part.
=D> =D> =D> :lol: :lol: :lol:
Again well said.

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Re: UK News

Post by Khun Paul » June 11, 2020, 8:55 am

GT93 wrote:
June 11, 2020, 8:04 am
That's very generous of you to Mr Johnson KP. I enjoy the Map's interesting threads about the UK. They're fun threads.
Oh dear boy, I am not in anyway congratulating Bojo, but I am saying hindsight is wonderful if ONLY we had the same intelligence and thinking with our foresight, would we all not be in a far better place .

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