A small but worrying interest in Fascism

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tamada
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by tamada » May 17, 2023, 5:47 pm

fatbob wrote:
May 17, 2023, 9:40 am
Whistler wrote:
May 16, 2023, 8:22 pm
Nobody knows, the scary thing is that is even a possibility. Trump and others almost certainly want it.
Where the hell do you get that from, have you heard his opinions on Ukraine, the only pres not to drop bombs, under him there would be no war now, you need to get away from main stream media, completly brainwashed and sprouting there propaganda.
Very true. Under Trump, Russia would have prevailed in Ukraine and Putin would be hunched over Europe's borders, salivating.


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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by tamada » May 17, 2023, 5:54 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 17, 2023, 4:51 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 14, 2023, 4:29 pm
A decade ago, I could not contemplate Nazi sentiments being expressed in public, now every month or so we see headlines like this. I am of the view that the rise of authoritarian sentiments in the USA has emboldened underground groups to show their face in public.

'There are good people both sides' Trump. This has been my concern since the huge shift to the Right in the USA. Too many lust for a Fuhrer. Far to close to what happened in Germany in the 1930's for my liking. No American party has shifted so radically Right as the GOP, danger Will Robinson, ethics, truth and respect for the law are now out the window.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/v ... 0f67a6dc99
Draw your own conclusions.
Nice work LYM but not a great challenge. It appears that UM's very own "well read adult, ...not a fool and well capable of reading and coming to my own concusions" is hoist by his own petard.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 5:55 pm

jackspratt wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:13 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 17, 2023, 4:27 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 17, 2023, 7:57 am
Whistler wrote:
May 16, 2023, 8:22 pm
Nobody knows, the scary thing is that is even a possibility. Trump and others almost certainly want it.
Trump is many things, but a Nazi? Are you sure he wants to set up pogroms for the Jews that lead to a final solution? Put your thinking cap on prior to

I labeled Trump a Fascist, why have you swapped that word for Nazi?

Put your thinking cap on? You are not addressing kid here, you sound like a teacher dressing down some immature little kid. I am a well read adult, as such it is always on, i am not a fool and well capable of reading and coming to my own concusions. Your characterisation of Fascism is shallow in the extreme. I find it strange that a self professed academic would be so limited in their understanding.

Fascist beliefs are based not on killing Jews, they are based on a centralized, authoritarian state dominated by a leader who is not to be questioned. Trump has dozens of times expressed admiration for such figures and has publicly praised while musing that he wished he had the same level of power.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

I am by no means the only person that has labelled Trump a fascist.

https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-de ... t-examples

You will not find one single former president that even came close to be labelled fascist. That he is even considered to be a potential choice again for president indicates to me that thinking caps are in very short supply.
Who is saying what here?

It just doesn't make sense. :?
Simple, Pratty, LYM thinks Trump is a great guy, I think he is a dangerous Fascist leaning menace
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 6:06 pm

tamada wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:54 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 17, 2023, 4:51 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 14, 2023, 4:29 pm
A decade ago, I could not contemplate Nazi sentiments being expressed in public, now every month or so we see headlines like this. I am of the view that the rise of authoritarian sentiments in the USA has emboldened underground groups to show their face in public.

'There are good people both sides' Trump. This has been my concern since the huge shift to the Right in the USA. Too many lust for a Fuhrer. Far to close to what happened in Germany in the 1930's for my liking. No American party has shifted so radically Right as the GOP, danger Will Robinson, ethics, truth and respect for the law are now out the window.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/v ... 0f67a6dc99
Draw your own conclusions.



Nice work LYM but not a great challenge. It appears that UM's very own "well read adult, ...not a fool and well capable of reading and coming to my own concusions" is hoist by his own petard.

Back to claim the number 1 troll on the forum of the forum again? Adding nothing to the argument but simply stalking any thread I am involved in. Nice to see, despite the clumsy misquote, that you picked up on my English usage of the word petard.

However, the fact that I read widely and can come to my own conclusions should not be the subject of petty, self serving insults from the peanut gallery.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Doodoo » May 17, 2023, 7:12 pm

Again attacking the contributors to an article is uncalled for

"should not be the subject of petty, self serving insults from the peanut gallery."

Pls try and keep it civil and on point

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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 7:27 pm

tamada wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:42 pm
stattointhailand wrote:
May 16, 2023, 8:27 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 16, 2023, 2:17 pm
Is it possible for you to answer the question asked? Namely, do you mean to suggest that the Republican Party is soon going to become a Nazi Party with a leader like Hitler?
Well it's certainly heading in that direction
It is? Based on what precisely? What the illiberal, left-wing media is saying?
When you disagree with a viewpoint, you put a denigrating label on it. No media, left or right wing labels Trump as a Nazi, they label him a Fascist or a wanna-be Fascist, so do many independent sources, academics. They are not illeberal or left-wing, they are pretty well-informed commentators.

Go off and read News Limited if you are frightened by an informed comment that is not beholding to proven manipulators. You don't seem to have enough intelligence to understand the difference, keep posting so we can see your ignorance on display.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Udon Map » May 17, 2023, 7:58 pm

tamada wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:54 pm
Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
May 17, 2023, 4:51 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 14, 2023, 4:29 pm
A decade ago, I could not contemplate Nazi sentiments being expressed in public, now every month or so we see headlines like this. I am of the view that the rise of authoritarian sentiments in the USA has emboldened underground groups to show their face in public.

'There are good people both sides' Trump. This has been my concern since the huge shift to the Right in the USA. Too many lust for a Fuhrer. Far to close to what happened in Germany in the 1930's for my liking. No American party has shifted so radically Right as the GOP, danger Will Robinson, ethics, truth and respect for the law are now out the window.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/v ... 0f67a6dc99
Draw your own conclusions.
Nice work LYM but not a great challenge. It appears that UM's very own "well read adult, ...not a fool and well capable of reading and coming to my own concusions" is hoist by his own petard.
I don't follow you, Tam. I see things in the U.S. pretty much the same as Whistler. It has become acceptable to express pro-Nazi sentiments. And respect for the law, particularly the process, is much less widespread now. Trump has, indeed, created a personality cult. Every time a court rules against him (which happens nearly every time he goes to court), Trump and his sycophants write it off to unfair persecution. Facts don't seem to matter much, or at all, to his merry band of followers.

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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 8:13 pm

It is easier to understand tam's posts when you understand his motives. He cannot be as obvious on this forum as he was in the past, because moderation was very tolerant, now that has tightened up, tam simply does a bit of finger poking, hoping to fly under the radar.

Not genuine, not treating things on their merits, simply an annoying, but glaringly obvious troll, that continues to run true to form over the past few years. When he does not get the attention he craves, like all trolls, he keeps on pushing the boundaries. We had months to enjoy his absence, shame it didn't last.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 8:29 pm

It is interesting that defenders of Trump and others at the extreme right-wing edge of American politics, trot out the term Nazi when accused of Fascism. The two terms are associated, but are not the same.

Let's call a spade a spade, it is Fascism and it has been embraced by Trump, Boebert, Greene, Bannon and many, many others in the GOP. This is not an opinion on my part, I am not basing this on so-called illiberal sources, it is based on their public statements.

This group met this week at the Doral Country Club with the rally chock full of admirers of Hitler, anti Semitic speakers, Climate deniers, election deniers, extreme right wing Christian bigots, and all hosted by Donald Trump. This is a plain, documented fact, not a beat-up by press, it is out there in the public domain.

These people want America to be governed by an Authoritarian leader, closer akin to Mussolini than Hitler in idealogy, but Fascist to the core.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Drunk Monkey » May 17, 2023, 8:35 pm

This kinda thread content really isnt my cuppa tea but i do actually like Tams postings though must admit i do have to look up some of the big and weird words he uses... imo the forum is better now hes back posting after his spell in solitary confinement.

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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by jackspratt » May 17, 2023, 8:51 pm

Whistler wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:55 pm

I am by no means the only person that has labelled Trump a fascist.

https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-de ... t-examples
Now I am even more confused.

That entire essay mounts a pretty compelling argument that Trump is NOT a fascist - whatever else he may be.
There is nothing stopping a thoughtful observer from drawing on both the American and European traditions of authoritarianism in describing Trump. But my hope is that the urge to call him a fascist does not detract unduly from the non-fascist, but strongly racist and authoritarian, origins of his politics right here at home.
Did you read to the end, or just stop after the first few paragraphs?

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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 8:59 pm

jackspratt wrote:
May 17, 2023, 8:51 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 17, 2023, 5:55 pm

I am by no means the only person that has labelled Trump a fascist.

https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-de ... t-examples
Now I am even more confused.

That entire essay mounts a pretty compelling argument that Trump is NOT a fascist - whatever else he may be.
There is nothing stopping a thoughtful observer from drawing on both the American and European traditions of authoritarianism in describing Trump. But my hope is that the urge to call him a fascist does not detract unduly from the non-fascist, but strongly racist and authoritarian, origins of his politics right here at home.
Did you read to the end, or just stop after the first few paragraphs?
I read the whole lot. A number of quotes in the article conclude their opinion is he is a fascist

Robert Paxton, a Columbia University historian of fascism and Vichy France, wrote after the attack, “I have been reluctant to use the F word for Trumpism, but yesterday’s use of violence against democratic institutions crosses the red line.”

and

Ruth Ben-Ghiat, a historian at NYU and author of Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present, told me in October that she preferred the term “authoritarian” to “fascist” in describing Trump. This past week, though, Ben-Ghiat took to Twitter to draw parallels between the Capitol siege and Mussolini’s 1922 March on Rome, and between Republicans now turning on Trump to Italian fascists who voted Mussolini out of power in 1943, not to reinstate democracy but to save fascism.

and

Personally, I have no problem with people who want to describe Trump as a fascist in efforts to condemn him or convey the gravity of his offenses.

even the final paragraph does not resile totally from the term

There is nothing stopping a thoughtful observer from drawing on both the American and European traditions of authoritarianism in describing Trump. But my hope is that the urge to call him a fascist does not detract unduly from the non-fascist, but strongly racist and authoritarian, origins of his politics right here at home
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by jackspratt » May 17, 2023, 9:15 pm

Whistler wrote:
May 17, 2023, 8:59 pm

I read the whole lot. A number of quotes in the article conclude their opinion is he is a fascist
And the many more who conclude he is not, including the author?

Perhaps you should get credit for providing balance - unwittingly or not.

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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by tamada » May 17, 2023, 10:41 pm

Udon Map wrote:
May 17, 2023, 7:58 pm
I don't follow you, Tam. I see things in the U.S. pretty much the same as Whistler. It has become acceptable to express pro-Nazi sentiments. And respect for the law, particularly the process, is much less widespread now. Trump has, indeed, created a personality cult. Every time a court rules against him (which happens nearly every time he goes to court), Trump and his sycophants write it off to unfair persecution. Facts don't seem to matter much, or at all, to his merry band of followers.
We can agree to pretty much see things differently then. There's probably more fear of being a victim of random gun violence than there is of becoming unwilling members of the Third Reich incarnate.

This thread, firmly camped as it is in the Australian politics forum was initially about a handful of nazi sympathizers who were heavily outnumbered by the more reasonable members of the human species and sent on their way with police assistance. Since then, it has been galavanting all over America with Hitler, fascism, right wing extremism, terrorism, Trump and the GOP all being smashed together in the big blender of incoherence. The OP needs to stop hyperventilating.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 10:54 pm

jackspratt wrote:
May 17, 2023, 9:15 pm
Whistler wrote:
May 17, 2023, 8:59 pm

I read the whole lot. A number of quotes in the article conclude their opinion is he is a fascist
And the many more who conclude he is not, including the author?

Perhaps you should get credit for providing balance - unwittingly or not.
I quoted this article because I thought it was quite balanced.
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Re: A small but worrying interest in Fascism

Post by Whistler » May 17, 2023, 11:04 pm

tamada wrote:
May 17, 2023, 10:41 pm
Udon Map wrote:
May 17, 2023, 7:58 pm
I don't follow you, Tam. I see things in the U.S. pretty much the same as Whistler. It has become acceptable to express pro-Nazi sentiments. And respect for the law, particularly the process, is much less widespread now. Trump has, indeed, created a personality cult. Every time a court rules against him (which happens nearly every time he goes to court), Trump and his sycophants write it off to unfair persecution. Facts don't seem to matter much, or at all, to his merry band of followers.
We can agree to pretty much see things differently then. There's probably more fear of being a victim of random gun violence than there is of becoming unwilling members of the Third Reich incarnate.

This thread, firmly camped as it is in the Australian politics forum was initially about a handful of nazi sympathizers who were heavily outnumbered by the more reasonable members of the human species and sent on their way with police assistance. Since then, it has been galavanting all over America with Hitler, fascism, right wing extremism, terrorism, Trump and the GOP all being smashed together in the big blender of incoherence. The OP needs to stop hyperventilating.
The OP needs to stop.hyperventilating? Dumb comment, if I was alone in my assessment that would be a valid comment.

There is a huge contingent of observers that agree with me. I would suggest you refrain from increasingly arrogant comments such as this. If you are genuine you might add a coherent thought to the subject instead of sniping from the wings. So far, you just seem to be a small minded troll trying to stir things up.
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