Miscellaneous COVID-19/Corona Virus Discussion, Questions, etc.

[papafarang]

[quote=pipoz4444 post_id=597416 time=1605759925

Who knows, maybe on 80% at 75 years old etc., if they ever do any test results on this age group.

Sadly it’s going to be easy to get test subjects, as the USA is going to over 200,000 new cases daily, so voluntary subjects are going to be plentiful, similarly the UK and Europe will have lots.
[/quote]

Ironically the test subjects have to pass a strict medical to be part of the program , no illnesses or pre existing condition's. So it works 95% on healthy people . got to laugh about that

[sometimewoodworker]

[quote=pipoz4444 post_id=597416 time=1605759925

Who knows, maybe on 80% at 75 years old etc., if they ever do any test results on this age group.

Sadly it’s going to be easy to get test subjects, as the USA is going to over 200,000 new cases daily, so voluntary subjects are going to be plentiful, similarly the UK and Europe will have lots.

Ironically the test subjects have to pass a strict medical to be part of the program , no illnesses or pre existing condition's. So it works 95% on healthy people . got to laugh about that
[/quote]
You are confusing the requirements for stages 1 & 2 where you are correct with stage 3 where you are not correct. The requirement is healthy individuals, but are you sure a preexisting condition stops you?
Unless you have a medical reference page supporting that.

[papafarang]

[quote=pipoz4444 post_id=597416 time=1605759925

Who knows, maybe on 80% at 75 years old etc., if they ever do any test results on this age group.

Sadly it’s going to be easy to get test subjects, as the USA is going to over 200,000 new cases daily, so voluntary subjects are going to be plentiful, similarly the UK and Europe will have lots.

Ironically the test subjects have to pass a strict medical to be part of the program , no illnesses or pre existing condition's. So it works 95% on healthy people . got to laugh about that

You are confusing the requirements for stages 1 & 2 where you are correct with stage 3 where you are not correct. The requirement is healthy individuals, but are you sure a preexisting condition stops you?
Unless you have a medical reference page supporting that.
[/quote]
I have a friend who for years has made lots of money putting himself into new drug trials ,yes you have to be mad to do such a thing. Not sure if it goes as far as stage 3 . but he once got turned down for having abscess with a tooth that he was taking medication for. I can't be confusing 1&2 because those two stages do not include human testing. From what I understand no human is given a drug until stage 3. Stage one is testing on cells, stage two is testing on animals and stage 3 is human trials on healthy subjects . or I could be completely wrong ?

[Khun Paul]

Interesting to note that the Oxford vaccine is deemed to be giving good results in giving immunity to the older population up to and including over 75 years old. Which is shame as we will never get it here, but the Moderna looks also promising as the storage requirements are not as strict as the Pfizer one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54993652

[sometimewoodworker]

I have a friend who for years has made lots of money putting himself into new drug trials ,yes you have to be mad to do such a thing. Not sure if it goes as far as stage 3 . but he once got turned down for having abscess with a tooth that he was taking medication for. I can't be confusing 1&2 because those two stages do not include human testing. From what I understand no human is given a drug until stage 3. Stage one is testing on cells, stage two is testing on animals and stage 3 is human trials on healthy subjects . or I could be completely wrong ?

Sorry your last question gets the answer yes you are wrong.

All 4 stages of trials include human subjects. Stage 4 is after general release and is a follow up to catch anything that may have got through stages 1 to 3.
Stage 1 trials (phase 1)

Stage 2 trials (phase 2)

Stage 3 trials (phase 3)

There are several different types of testing that come before the human trials. Also while the above is for treatment rather than vaccines the vaccine testing is very similar.

[papafarang]

[quote=pipoz4444 post_id=597416 time=1605759925

Who knows, maybe on 80% at 75 years old etc., if they ever do any test results on this age group.

Sadly it’s going to be easy to get test subjects, as the USA is going to over 200,000 new cases daily, so voluntary subjects are going to be plentiful, similarly the UK and Europe will have lots.

Ironically the test subjects have to pass a strict medical to be part of the program , no illnesses or pre existing condition's. So it works 95% on healthy people . got to laugh about that

You are confusing the requirements for stages 1 & 2 where you are correct with stage 3 where you are not correct. The requirement is healthy individuals, but are you sure a preexisting condition stops you?
Unless you have a medical reference page supporting that.

I have a friend who for years has made lots of money putting himself into new drug trials ,yes you have to be mad to do such a thing. Not sure if it goes as far as stage 3 . but he once got turned down for having abscess with a tooth that he was taking medication for. I can't be confusing 1&2 because those two stages do not include human testing. From what I understand no human is given a drug until stage 3. Stage one is testing on cells, stage two is testing on animals and stage 3 is human trials on healthy subjects . or I could be completely wrong ?
[/quote]

Yep I was completely wrong ,I was thing pre clinical , but I am sure they only test heathy people. Point being anyone already unwell with say diabetes could give false data ,it might kill them,make their condition worse or be ineffective. That's why they stop trials just because of one death . the the only reason to test sick people is if the drug is for the condition , I.e test cancer drugs on people with cancer .these trials are about keeping healthy people healthy.

[sometimewoodworker]

Yep I was completely wrong ,I was thing pre clinical , but I am sure they only test heathy people. Point being anyone already unwell with say diabetes could give false data ,it might kill them,make their condition worse or be ineffective. That's why they stop trials just because of one death . the the only reason to test sick people is if the drug is for the condition , I.e test cancer drugs on people with cancer .these trials are about keeping healthy people healthy.

Again I think that you are wrong. Since stage 3 has to test safety in a large population and the vaccines will then be released for general use they by definition must test in people who have other conditions otherwise you could only ever use vaccines on totally healthy individuals. Not very useful as it’s the people who have conditions like diabetes etc who are at most risk of deadly results of infection.

[papafarang]

Yep I was completely wrong ,I was thing pre clinical , but I am sure they only test heathy people. Point being anyone already unwell with say diabetes could give false data ,it might kill them,make their condition worse or be ineffective. That's why they stop trials just because of one death . the the only reason to test sick people is if the drug is for the condition , I.e test cancer drugs on people with cancer .these trials are about keeping healthy people healthy.

Again I think that you are wrong. Since stage 3 has to test safety in a large population and the vaccines will then be released for general use they by definition must test in people who have other conditions otherwise you could only ever use vaccines on totally healthy individuals. Not very useful as it’s the people who have conditions like diabetes etc who are at most risk of deadly results of infection.

See that's why I'm confused ? Why would they test a vaccine on people that might have had or are already infected with covid
? . why would they test a vaccine on someone in the late stages of cancer ? In every test they need to know the responds of a healthy human. Not an already sick or dying person. During the trials these test get stopped quite often due to someone dying . say you have an 80 year old with a heart condition ,diabetes , high blood pressure and suffering from DVT. With all the medication he would be on how would you know if he died what caused his death. Contraindication would make a complete mess of any data. As I already said I have a friend who makes a living out of having drugs tested on him. And he said if you have any medications then you can't be part of the tests , a small infection can turn into sepsis, blood poisoning ? . your playing around with the immune system. The point is you don't want the subject to die for any reason. When they test it on monkeys do the look for sick monkeys ?

[sometimewoodworker]

See that's why I'm confused ? Why would they test a vaccine on people that might have had or are already infected with covid

To test it’s safe for someone with that situation.

One of the main points of a stage 3 trial is safety. Unless they can prove safety in the people they want to vacate the vaccine can not be released for use for those people. No they don’t have to test for every possible combination, but they can’t do a safety test in general release, though if there are bad effects once released it can be withdrawn

As I already said I have a friend who makes a living out of having drugs tested on him. And he said if you have any medications then you can't be part of the tests

Stage 1 trial sure. Didn’t you read the information posted?

[papafarang]

Confused again ? The trial is to see if it produces an immune response ,if you have covid or have had covid the your body will already have the antibodies . so if you tested 30,000 people that already have covid the vaccine would have a 100% success rate. If you tested on people that are taking drugs that suppress the immune system again you might find 0% effective.
The tests are to see if they can induce the response of your immune system , as I've said my friend said to me they don't test on sick people ,if you have a cold the data would be wrong. Think of it this way ,people don't die of covid , many die because the immune system goes into overdrive and the body cannot cope. Even scientist will tell you the vaccine will give you 95% response but in the real world it won't be the same . imagine if they gave the drug to someone who was suffering from HIV but had not been diagnosed with it. That would be a very foolish thing to do ,It could have a grave outcome. And would make your data look like your vaccine was a failure. Normally it would take 10 years to find a vaccine, once they know its safe for healthy people then its time to test on the others. Poor or rushed drug testing leads to bad things happening

[sometimewoodworker]

Confused again ? The trial is to see if it produces an immune response ,if you have covid or have had covid the your body will already have the antibodies . so if you tested 30,000 people that already have covid the vaccine would have a 100% success rate. If you tested on people that are taking drugs that suppress the immune system again you might find 0% effective.
The tests are to see if they can induce the response of your immune system , as I've said my friend said to me they don't test on sick people ,if you have a cold the data would be wrong. Think of it this way ,people don't die of covid , many die because the immune system goes into overdrive and the body cannot cope. Even scientist will tell you the vaccine will give you 95% response but in the real world it won't be the same . imagine if they gave the drug to someone who was suffering from HIV but had not been diagnosed with it. That would be a very foolish thing to do ,It could have a grave outcome. And would make your data look like your vaccine was a failure. Normally it would take 10 years to find a vaccine, once they know its safe for healthy people then its time to test on the others. Poor or rushed drug testing leads to bad things happening

You are bringing in random cases (adding in Covid infections, which is new)and it seems that you have an incorrect understanding of the trial process, the clinical data or the way that effects are studied, as you are making incorrect statements and drawing false conclusions, because of that.

Your friend is giving you the information that they have, you are expanding that to have meanings it does not have.

once they know its safe for healthy people

Stage 1

then its time to test on the others.

Stages 2 & 3

Poor or rushed drug testing leads to bad things happening

True, see thalidomide.

Please give quotation from medical source that requires only healthy individuals with no underlying conditions (as you say is the case) in stage 3 trials for vaccines. As well as in stage 2 trials.

[papafarang]

The problem is your your confusing drugs being tested for sick people , there is no point testing cancer drugs on people not suffering from cancer ,those people do have to be sick.
To find out if a vaccine works there is no purpose in giving it to somebody who is already has an immune response. As I keep stating a friend of mine who subjects himself to trials told me he has extensive medical checks to make sure he is fit enough to be in the trial. Any sign of infections or illnesses and you can't be involved .a vaccination it not a cure. If you catch measles there would be no point rushing down to the doctor for the measles vaccination would there.
I can only tell you what my Friend tells me. You ask me to point out where it says you have to be healthy. Well just type in 'healthy volunteers for drug testing' that's what they ask for so I assume they want healthy people

[noosard]

The last testing of about 43000 people have 162 confirmed cases in the placebo group and 8 in the vaccine group
which makes approx 95% efficacy
this shows the 43000 did not have the virus prior

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11 ... ing-result

[papafarang]

The last testing of about 43000 people have 162 confirmed cases in the placebo group and 8 in the vaccine group
which makes approx 95% efficacy
this shows the 43000 did not have the virus prior

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11 ... ing-result

So they were screened to make sure they did not have covid/ covid antibodies before the trial started

[noosard]

One would think they were screened prior to the trials
be a bit difficult in places with lots of cases to get a intelligent result if no screen was done

[sometimewoodworker]

The problem is your your confusing drugs being tested for sick people , there is no point testing cancer drugs on people not suffering from cancer ,those people do have to be sick.
To find out if a vaccine works there is no purpose in giving it to somebody who is already has an immune response. As I keep stating a friend of mine who subjects himself to trials told me he has extensive medical checks to make sure he is fit enough to be in the trial. Any sign of infections or illnesses and you can't be involved .a vaccination it not a cure. If you catch measles there would be no point rushing down to the doctor for the measles vaccination would there.
I can only tell you what my Friend tells me. You ask me to point out where it says you have to be healthy. Well just type in 'healthy volunteers for drug testing' that's what they ask for so I assume they want healthy people

No you were saying that anybody in all testing had to have no health conditions (you have only just introduced being clear of COVID-19 which of course you would have to be)

Where is the stage 3 requirement for vaccines?
Where is the stage 2 requirement for vaccines?

The stage 1 requires healthy individuals, so it’s a reasonable assumption that those are the being recruited for stage 1.

[papafarang]

I have a friend who for years has made lots of money putting himself into new drug trials ,yes you have to be mad to do such a thing. Not sure if it goes as far as stage 3 . but he once got turned down for having abscess with a tooth that he was taking medication for. I can't be confusing 1&2 because those two stages do not include human testing. From what I understand no human is given a drug until stage 3. Stage one is testing on cells, stage two is testing on animals and stage 3 is human trials on healthy subjects . or I could be completely wrong ?

Sorry your last question gets the answer yes you are wrong.

All 4 stages of trials include human subjects. Stage 4 is after general release and is a follow up to catch anything that may have got through stages 1 to 3.
Stage 1 trials (phase 1)
B1F36B02-DD2E-4011-AEAF-1E7C868FEC06.jpeg
1E45FC34-BD6D-4244-A322-A5DF6FBF9F99.jpeg
Stage 2 trials (phase 2)
E052283B-C811-4ADD-A1D9-9E367BBB69C6.jpeg
Stage 3 trials (phase 3)
168225BE-CDDD-4C34-BE88-E6371D808001.jpeg

There are several different types of testing that come before the human trials. Also while the above is for treatment rather than vaccines the vaccine testing is very similar.

Let's simplify this ,at the top it clearly says healthy volunteers in stage 1 , second stage your post clearly shows the healthy volunteers , third stage it oddly says about people suffering with the condition ,if you already have covid then trying to vaccinate you would be pointless. The fact is to be in a clinical trail you have to be healthy. If you for some reason can't look this info up or you that its fake new then I can help you no further.

[noosard]

Interesting article pulling no punches

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... s-just-yet

[noosard]

Seems South Australia pulled a Fat Pizza and Housos with their corona virus out break

South Australian authorities say the state was plunged into a six-day hard lockdown based on a lie told to contact tracers by a Covid-positive worker at an Adelaide pizza shop who had worked alongside a quarantine hotel security guard with the virus.

[tamada]

Seems South Australia pulled a Fat Pizza and Housos with their corona virus out break

South Australian authorities say the state was plunged into a six-day hard lockdown based on a lie told to contact tracers by a Covid-positive worker at an Adelaide pizza shop who had worked alongside a quarantine hotel security guard with the virus.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55011790

Also interesting to read in that linked article how Victoria has dodged the C-19 bullet after Melbun's draconian 4-month lock-down that got heavily politicized downundah.