Future energy sources?

[Whistler]

First of all, let me point out that Alex disagrees with what I had to say, and he has on several occasions. He does so by asking questions, and robustly. Beats the hell out of personal attacks that are de rigour for some on here.

The efffective life of the batteries will be around 15 years. Maybe not too bad, I think the world of energy production and storage will be very different in 15 years, maybe a solution today to buy us time for the next advancement

https://www.quora.com/How-long-will-the ... 0operation.

Recycling of lithium batteries to recover lithium, cobalt etc is now pretty good. These are very large batteries, not like the baby batteries in phones and watches, so recycling is commercially viable.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/03/ar ... yes-or-no/

When lithium batteries first started, there was a lot of child exploitation, but now lithium production is large scale. Chile and Australia are now the major sources, no child labour in these countries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium ... e&ie=UTF-8

The environmental impact on mining. Significant, but not as nearly as bad as a lot of rubbish misinformation posts on the matter are all over the internet.

One of many

https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium ... e&ie=UTF-8

Alex, happy to read any rebuttal you may have on the subject

[AlexO]

Alex, happy to read any rebuttal you may have on the subject.

No rebuttal's Whistler, I just disagree that batteries and the other forms of weather dependent energy production
systems are the way forwards for mankind. Sure utilise solar and wind but do you really want to be dependent on weather. Solar power, almost unlimited in the likes of the desert environments, until you get a wind storm and the panels are covered in dust/sand. At the same time if you have wind storms good old aesthetically beautiful windmills shutdown. Hydro where it can be guaranteed is another great supplement but again weather and geographically dependent. We need as a species, a reliable and now, clean source of essential energy to satisfy the increasing human population of this planet. There is currently only one source that meets these requirements. The dreaded Nuclear option. Forget the anti nuclear war protestors of the 60's and 70's. Nuclear Power Plants do not add to military nuclear arsenals, they are a safe and reliable source of essential energy. Discounting Chernobyl (massive human mistakes) and the Japanese (Thanks Tam) building plants in extremely high risk areas it is an amazingly environmentally friendly method of energy production.
I lived quite close to a Nuclear Power Station built with what now is 50 year old technology. Have not turned green, my children don't have 2 heads As far as I am concerned a nuclear base load is the only viable option if we want safe reliable energy supplies in the future.

[Whistler]

Germany has no deserts, more than 60% of its energy comes from green sources.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/re ... %20percent.

[Whistler]

So what power source charges these EV's at night

Excess capacity in the grid. Peak usage is in the morning and early evening, lots of daylight available at other low peak times, so plenty of solar, hydro runs 24/7, wind is available regardless of daylight. Once energy can be stored, it can also feed the grid.

[AlexO]

Germany has no deserts, more than 60% of its energy comes from green sources.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/re ... %20percent.

Whistler
Thats great, but read sentences 2and 3 of the article. Both state wind and solar energy were due to 'Favourable weather conditions" Weather dependent sources.
At this moment in time most of Northern Europe is enduring a winter Atlantic storm with high winds and blanketing snow, wonder what percentage of Green source power is being provided just now.

[Whistler]

No reported problems. Last energy crises was when there was a disruption on gas being piped from Russia. That storm must have the wind turbines spinning like tops. 55

I am not greenie crazy anti nucleur either. In fact I think nuclear should be part of the mix for cleaner energy. Canada seems to be leading the pack in this area. The downside of nuclear seems to be cost and spin up time. Significantly more expensive than solar, wind and fossil fuel.

I am of the view that there is almost unlimited solar and wind, but it can be irregular as you point out. If we make a breakthrough in storage, we can almost eliminate other forms of generation. Like you Alex, I don't see battery storage as a long term solution. A mixture of pumped hydro and chemical storage like ammonia and hydrogen appeal.

[noosard]

Wind turbines require:
a minimum wind speed (generally 12-14 km/h) to begin turning and generate electricity. strong winds (50-60 km/h) to generate at full capacity. winds of less than 90 km/h; beyond that speed, the turbines must be stopped to avoid damage.

Icing of the blades also causes problems, which would be a major problem in cold areas,

[Whistler]

Wind turbines require:
a minimum wind speed (generally 12-14 km/h) to begin turning and generate electricity. strong winds (50-60 km/h) to generate at full capacity. winds of less than 90 km/h; beyond that speed, the turbines must be stopped to avoid damage.

Icing of the blades also causes problems, which would be a major problem in cold areas,

All the negatives for wind turbines from anti green energy folk, however their wide scale adoption gives me some idea that there might be a few positives as well.

[noosard]

Not negatives from anti greens just the facts on operating wind turbines source is wiki

[tamada]

Wind turbines require:
a minimum wind speed (generally 12-14 km/h) to begin turning and generate electricity. strong winds (50-60 km/h) to generate at full capacity. winds of less than 90 km/h; beyond that speed, the turbines must be stopped to avoid damage.

Icing of the blades also causes problems, which would be a major problem in cold areas,

All the negatives for wind turbines from anti green energy folk, however their wide scale adoption gives me some idea that there might be a few positives as well.

So THAT'S why most of the hundreds of wind turbines that line the hills either side of the A74(M) north of Gretna on the road to Glasgow are stationary and appear broken.

Thanks noos.

[Whistler]

Interesting

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/g ... nal-panels

[AlexO]

No reported problems. Last energy crises was when there was a disruption on gas being piped from Russia. That storm must have the wind turbines spinning like tops. 55

Whistler
Probably because they brought the conventional power stations online to provide the necessary energy.
Agree that solar and wind are not dependable sources and how much storage do you gamble on providing. Hours, days, a weeks' worth maximum demand load?
It would economic madness not to have sufficient conventional generation to ensure we continue to work, live and play during times when solar and wind supplies are not available or being restricted.
Hydro has its limitations and has real ecological affects both upstream and downstream. The Mekong is a classic example.
Tams observations on broken wind turbines in Scotland is probably a result of the 4 major storms that the UK has suffered so far, this winter.
I am still of the opinion that nuclear is the only really viable (using current technology) solution of meeting reliable, clean energy requirements in the future.

[tamada]

...
Hydro has its limitations and has real ecological affects both upstream and downstream. The Mekong is a classic example.
Tams observations on broken wind turbines in Scotland is probably a result of the 4 major storms that the UK has suffered so far, this winter.
...

For clarity. My Scottish turbine viewing experience wasn't recent but I recall it was in the early, cold and windy part of the year. My assumption was they must be broken whereas the reality was that most were probably parked out of the prevailing wind with the hub-brake on so that they don't self-destruct in a hoolie. Noos mentioned they have a maximum, safe speed rating, so I like to think that maybe that's the reason and not failed investment or poor maintenance.

WRT to hydro, I recall way back when Jimmy Nicol, our excellent geography teacher at Peterheid Academy, stressed with some degrre of pride how the fish ladder on the River Tummel at Pitlochry allowed migrating salmon to bypass the dams for spawning. I reckon it was the first time I was made aware of environmental responsibility and the extra steps needed not to bugger things up.

"The ladder was constructed as a result of a 1943 Act of Parliament which laid a duty of care on the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to preserve fish stocks in the waterways encompassing its power schemes. The form and design were created by the fish biologist John Berry.

It was completed in 1951 alongside the dam for the hydro-electric power station as part of the Tummel hydro-electric power scheme and was installed in 1952. It was the first of its type in Scotland."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitlochry_fish_ladder

By all accounts, when it comes to the Mekong, the Chinese don't give a toss.

[AlexO]

Hear what you say Tam.
Whether broken or turned off to prevent damage due to high winds they were not turning, therefor 'not' producing electricity. Weather dependent therefor not guaranteed.
I to have enjoyed watching salmon swimming up the Pitlochry dam fish lift but older people say the number of Salmon in the upstream fisheries is far less than they remember (there are a number of reasons not just the dam for this).

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjfas-2016-0253

This report from Canada (a bit long winded) also identifies what effects dammed rivers can have.
I have no issues with well planned Hydro systems, but they do have effects on the local ecology. As pointed out some Nations hydro systems more than others.

[Whistler]

Alex, Modern large scale wind farms hardly ever shut down because of high winds, these days they have a braking system that slows them down to prevent damage.

[AlexO]

Good, but how modern is "modern, Whistler? But what is their survival rate in destructive hurricanes or typhoons. How much will it cost to replace older wind turbines. Then there are always the days when there is insufficient wind to get them turning and producing electricity. Its the same with solar, so you need a conventional method of producing power to meet demand when weather stops the Green options. Germany prevents shortages by firing up Gas Turbine systems which granted reduces the overall CO2 annual output as not working 24/7 but are not the dreamed of net zero output. But the fact remains that Countries will still need duplicate conventional power stations to provide base load if weather conditions prevent the green systems from doing their job.

[tamada]

Good, but how modern is "modern, Whistler? But what is their survival rate in destructive hurricanes or typhoons. How much will it cost to replace older wind turbines. Then there are always the days when there is insufficient wind to get them turning and producing electricity. Its the same with solar, so you need a conventional method of producing power to meet demand when weather stops the Green options. Germany prevents shortages by firing up Gas Turbine systems which granted reduces the overall CO2 annual output as not working 24/7 but are not the dreamed of net zero output. But the fact remains that Countries will still need duplicate conventional power stations to provide base load if weather conditions prevent the green systems from doing their job.

The 2021 Texas freeze that caused around $98 k of damage on the Houston house is a recent example. The state governor initially blamed it on frozen wind turbines so the fault of the over zealous embrace of renewables. The reality was Texas had historically been a fat-headed, politically motivated holdout on joining ERCOT and participate in interstate pooling and sharing of power resources. When their base power generation couldn't cope with peak in demand, it switched to the wind turbines that had been already turned-off ahead of them freezing while in use and being damaged. Much talk after that catastrophic freeze of joining ERCOT but no political will. Now they're emerging from another arctic-grade freeze, they're talking about it again. Bloody Republicans, fiddling while Houston freezes.

[jackspratt]

Is Cruz slinking off to Mexico again?

[tamada]

Is Cruz slinking off to Mexico again?

Already slunked, no?

Slunked
verb (past intransitive)
To have endorsed Donald Trump

[glalt]

Sun and wind are by no means constant, thus the problem of storing the energy. I have several solar power systems mainly because the grid in my area of the boonies is on and off constantly, at least every other day. My solar systems cost me way more money than I save. I use deep cycle sealed batteries and try to take good care of them by not discharging them below 50 percent. My latest set are weakening. I need more than 1,200 AH storage and a single 200 AH battery will cost about 8,000 baht. That will cost me a minimum of 48,000 baht. My solar components have been very reliable after about 10 years including the solar panels, but the batteries last maybe 6 years so replacing grid power is an expensive proposition. Replacing the lead acid batteries is one answer but my old components are not suitable for charging lithium batteries not even considering the extra cost of the lithium batteries. Another problem is that I am now too old to be climbing up on the roof for panel maintenance.