Electrical question

[AlexO]

Jon
I will attempt to clear up a few misconceptions about incoming supplies but just with the information given your builder is a danger to you and you should check the sizes of the cables he has used on you bigger loads such as cooker circuit and water heater.
1/ Does not matter what size your main breaker is in relation to incoming supply cable size, the breaker is protecting the internal installation If any of the primary circuit protection devices fail not the incoming supply cable.
2/ No such thing as a "normal" size home. You have already highlighted that you have a large capacity water heater and electric cooking whereas another "normal" house might have smaller heater and gas cooking.
3/ Only safe way to size your supply cable is to add up all the electrical loads in the house (You can ignore lights and TVs etc unless you are intending to have a light show and TV in every room all on at same time) You need the rated load of WHs, cookers ,A/C units, kettles, air fryers etc that gives you total load in watts. Divide the watts by 220 (normal supply voltage) This should give you the total amps you have connected. As its not normal that everything is working at the same time you can apply what is called a diversity factor so multiply the total amps by 0.65. This is the figure in amps that you should use to size your incoming supply cable. Use the tables provided in a previous post, use unenclosed and AL (aluminum) and see what size of cable matches your requirements.
Hope this helps, now back to my sabbatical.
Cheers
Alex

[tamada]

1/ Correct. The governing factor here is the size of the meter required from the PEA and 15/45 will be what's needed because...
2/ DM's build is indeed a "normal" sized home with regard to electrical load. The 6kW water heater isn't an 'always on' appliance. Neither will be the electric range in the kitchen. Arguably, he could manage with a 65A main breaker in the CU but lets just stick with the 100A already installed as in the grand scheme of things, it's not really pertinent to his question.
3/ Doing the math is a good exercise in assessing your actual needs and certainly worth it if one is rating a "normal" build but may have left the door open on future expansion. This may be a 'man cave' or a shed for dads weekend follies with his power tools, a 'granny flat' type extension for... granny, a small 'villa' for visitors or even a swimming pool.

DM's build doesn't have any room for such expansion so the online sizing table linked below (also recommended by Thailand's electrical guru), serves to bolster the handy "Aussie rules" wire-sizing chart posted earlier. If you select single-phase, 45 A (for the PEA meter rating), a 10 m run to cover DM's best guesstimate and "conduit on a wall or trunking" (like at DM's new place), it offers 10mm.

https://www.doncastercables.com/technical-help/

Ruling out aluminium because it can be more trouble than it is worth (and the PEA probably wouldn't touch it), the 10mm copper that his builder suggests (and also works for BD) would be the acceptable minimum. Personally (based on personal experience) and in alignment with a few fellow members here, the 16mm copper would be the optimum gauge, just in case DM gets that karaoke machine or wants to provide power for the yacht when it's moored at the jetty out back.

[deankham]

hijacking this topic slightly as it has a good following and likely to get a good answer; I'm concerned about the earthing or lack of it at my Udon home.
When we had an A/C tech doing an install he told the wife he could not find any earth for the house and we should get it looked at. As a stop gap (i.e so he could pee off and finish his job, he pushed a bit of cable a few inches into the ground - ran from the A/C unit directly down the wall and into the ground.)

What is the norm for earthing in Thailand (copper rod?) and is it a an easy add on if for example I just need to get someone to burry an earth rod and connect back to the circuit breaker / consumer unit?

I admit to having limited knowledge of earthing and home wiring in general.

[FrazeeDK]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

[AlexO]

hijacking this topic slightly as it has a good following and likely to get a good answer; I'm concerned about the earthing or lack of it at my Udon home.
When we had an A/C tech doing an install he told the wife he could not find any earth for the house and we should get it looked at. As a stop gap (i.e so he could pee off and finish his job, he pushed a bit of cable a few inches into the ground - ran from the A/C unit directly down the wall and into the ground.)

What is the norm for earthing in Thailand (copper rod?) and is it a an easy add on if for example I just need to get someone to burry an earth rod and connect back to the circuit breaker / consumer unit?

I admit to having limited knowledge of earthing and home wiring in general.

Difficult to answer without having a look at your installation.
If you don't have earthed circuit wiring ie 3 wires at your sockets or fixed connections at equipment then just adding a wire from the consumer unit to an earth rod does nothing. Again if you have RCD's on the circuits or on the main breaker then you are probably covered. If not there are various different ways you can retro fit a RCD to your incoming supply that will give you cover. Best get a skilled guy to inspect or perhaps Tamada can provide an alternative.

[dunroaming]

Good debate between Alex the retired electrical engineer and project Manager and Udon Map's favourite troll

[AlexO]

1/ Correct. The governing factor here is the size of the meter required from the PEA and 15/45 will be what's needed because...
2/ DM's build is indeed a "normal" sized home with regard to electrical load. The 6kW water heater isn't an 'always on' appliance. Neither will be the electric range in the kitchen. Arguably, he could manage with a 65A main breaker in the CU but lets just stick with the 100A already installed as in the grand scheme of things, it's not really pertinent to his question.
3/ Doing the math is a good exercise in assessing your actual needs and certainly worth it if one is rating a "normal" build but may have left the door open on future expansion. This may be a 'man cave' or a shed for dads weekend follies with his power tools, a 'granny flat' type extension for... granny, a small 'villa' for visitors or even a swimming pool.

DM's build doesn't have any room for such expansion so the online sizing table linked below (also recommended by Thailand's electrical guru), serves to bolster the handy "Aussie rules" wire-sizing chart posted earlier. If you select single-phase, 45 A (for the PEA meter rating), a 10 m run to cover DM's best guesstimate and "conduit on a wall or trunking" (like at DM's new place), it offers 10mm.

https://www.doncastercables.com/technical-help/

Ruling out aluminium because it can be more trouble than it is worth (and the PEA probably wouldn't touch it), the 10mm copper that his builder suggests (and also works for BD) would be the acceptable minimum. Personally (based on personal experience) and in alignment with a few fellow members here, the 16mm copper would be the optimum gauge, just in case DM gets that karaoke machine or wants to provide power for the yacht when it's moored at the jetty out back.

1/ How do you decide on a 15/45 meter requirement. Flip a coin and hope for the best.
2/ Covered by the 0.65 diversity factor.
3/ Given that most domestic installations have AL supply cables and the PEA installed my incoming supply from meter location to my property line in AL your statement is not 100% correct and the rest is just waffle. Back in the UK they are now installing 10mm copper to individual cooker circuits etc.
Jon
Do the calculation as per my explanation and obviously if you plan to have yachts etc then add a bit and that will tell you what size of meter, the supply cable size etc to provide a safe working installation. Remember and check your water heater and cooker circuit cable sizes.

[sometimewoodworker]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

[sometimewoodworker]

FWIW domestic aluminium supply cables are no problem for the PEA, but only if they are in free air. They are also quite a bit cheaper so for longer runs save quite a bit of money.

[AlexO]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

Granted that connecting all your earthing/grounding rods is a belts and braces action and reduces overall resistance, but how can it be "really dangerous". If you only have one rod is that really dangerous??

[tamada]

How old is the house?
Are your wall outlets grounded in that there are three wires connected to each 3-pin outlet? Live, neutral, ground.
If there is a wire connected to the ground pin, does that wire run into the conduit with the live and neutral wires?
Or is the ground pin jumpered by a short wire to the neutral pin at the outlet?
Is there any wire (of any colour) connected to the ground bus bar inside the breaker box (CU)?

[Barney]

I’ve got 5 rods at my place.

Jon
Did PEA offer a smart meter for future technology that may come?


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[Drunk Monkey]

I’ve got 5 rods at my place.

Jon
Did PEA offer a smart meter for future technology that may come?


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3 groundong rods barney .. i have asked re a smart meter.but looks like a standard 15 amp.for now ..btw had a couple beers this avro with glen a mate of yours .. nice fella

Dm

[tamada]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

Granted that connecting all your earthing/grounding rods is a belts and braces action and reduces overall resistance, but how can it be "really dangerous". If you only have one rod is that really dangerous??

Separate ground rods can be dangerous or "potentially a bad thing" for example in a room where two separately fused circuits cohabit.

The bonding of separate ground rods is is only as good as the quality of that bonding. A wire screwed to an enameled surface of a washing machine or painted frame of an air-conditioner, or wires twisted together (tape optional) or jammed into the soft ground with a six inch nail are just some examples of bad ground bonding.

A single deep ground rod that's weather and moisture protected but can be inspected for corrosion and is correctly bonded inside the CU is safest.

[sometimewoodworker]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

Granted that connecting all your earthing/grounding rods is a belts and braces action and reduces overall resistance, but how can it be "really dangerous". If you only have one rod is that really dangerous??

You are welcome to research the various ways that it can do bad things it’s all well documented in the various standards and training manuals.

With a single building a single grounding point, [though that can be built of more than 1 grounding rod (and the Ufer ground if that works in the building)] all bonded together is the correct way.

If there are several different buildings then seperate independent could be the best way.

I know enough to know that I would need my structures and the grounding to be professionally designed.

[AlexO]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

Granted that connecting all your earthing/grounding rods is a belts and braces action and reduces overall resistance, but how can it be "really dangerous". If you only have one rod is that really dangerous??

You are welcome to research the various ways that it can do bad things it’s all well documented in the various standards and training manuals.

With a single building a single grounding point, [though that can be built of more than 1 grounding rod (and the Ufer ground if that works in the building)] all bonded together is the correct way.

If there are several different buildings then seperate independent could be the best way.

I know enough to know that I would need my structures and the grounding to be professionally designed.

There are many different ways to correctly earth/ground electrical systems but to tell Frazee that what he has (seems by Thai standards quite acceptable) could be "really dangerous" is just waffle. Your final statement acknowledging you know nothing shows that you should not be commenting about subjects you have no idea about.

[AlexO]

this year have had 3 A/C split units installed to replace older ones. The installers (out of HomePro) grounded each of them with a one meter copper rod and copper wire from the split unit.. My house is 3 wire for all outlets (active ground) with a separate 2 meter copper ground to the main breaker panel..

It sounds as if you may have more than I ground point. Unless you have bonded them together, in a single building that is a potentially bad thing. It has the chance to be anything from mildly annoying all the way to really dangerous.

Granted that connecting all your earthing/grounding rods is a belts and braces action and reduces overall resistance, but how can it be "really dangerous". If you only have one rod is that really dangerous??

Separate ground rods can be dangerous or "potentially a bad thing" for example in a room where two separately fused circuits cohabit.

The bonding of separate ground rods is is only as good as the quality of that bonding. A wire screwed to an enameled surface of a washing machine or painted frame of an air-conditioner, or wires twisted together (tape optional) or jammed into the soft ground with a six inch nail are just some examples of bad ground bonding.

A single deep ground rod that's weather and moisture protected but can be inspected for corrosion and is correctly bonded inside the CU is safest.

Jeez Tam
You just cannot help yourself can you, the last word on everything even if you don't have a clue. Nice copy and pasting about bad installation practices but forgive me, I do believe Frazee's system sounds quite spot on for a domestic Thai installation. Pretty specific about earth/ground rod lengths etc (no mention of 6 inch nails) Multiple routes to earth and various lengths of rod is as good as we will get. If you want to start on about soil resistivity and improvement methods then you are welcome to copy and paste more info. I dont tell you how to find oil and gas, do me the same curtesy and perhaps people will have safer electrical installations.

[Barney]

Glen is a top bloke. He has just arrived.
By the way he’s a sparky.

I have 4 rods for lightning protection as high metal roof and metal frame house.
Plus 1 main rod deep down, 2 meter, for the main incoming board.


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[tamada]

I haven't argued or otherwise got upset with the comments or advice being offered by other members.

I haven't offered any advice or voiced an opinion or recommended a process or purchase that will endanger anyone's life.

I haven't challenged anyone's electrical engineering qualifications or professional experience, unstated or otherwise.

I haven't called other members ignorant and accused them of speaking "waffle".

I don't profess that my knowledge or experience is somehow empirical.

Apart from a link to a website, I haven't copy and pasted anything.

[AlexO]

I haven't argued or otherwise got upset with the comments or advice being offered by other members.

I haven't offered any advice or voiced an opinion or recommended a process or purchase that will endanger anyone's life.

I haven't challenged anyone's electrical engineering qualifications or professional experience, unstated or otherwise.

I haven't called other members ignorant and accused them of speaking "waffle".

I don't profess that my knowledge or experience is somehow empirical.

Apart from a link to a website, I haven't copy and pasted anything.

Separate ground rods can be dangerous or "potentially a bad thing" for example in a room where two separately fused circuits cohabit.

The bonding of separate ground rods is is only as good as the quality of that bonding. A wire screwed to an enameled surface of a washing machine or painted frame of an air-conditioner, or wires twisted together (tape optional) or jammed into the soft ground with a six inch nail are just some examples of bad ground bonding.

A single deep ground rod that's weather and moisture protected but can be inspected for corrosion and is correctly bonded inside the CU is safest.

Never mind Tam many people will believe you (honest). You after all are the expert on everything and the last word always has to be Tamada's because he is the greatest font of all knowledge.