To Shut Up or Not

[Brian Davis]

I thought this article in the Bangkok Post was excellent.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opi ... tural-tide

I’ve been part of farang rants about this and that, but I was pleased to find a Thai essentially writing about whether to shut up or not and sharing the emotions I feel. I have to accept that as a guest here, my quiet or angry moans in driving, in offices, schools, with the Police, Immigration etc. probably don’t achieve anything positive and there’s a risk here of anything from a roadside punch up to having problems with paperwork processing, or worse. After all, it’s only the Thai who can put their country in order and sadly a choice of just about anywhere and everything with which to start.

I’ll just add that an initiative by members of a VIP family might achieve some success. Thai officialdom and the general public appear to jump here. For example, “Keep Your Country Clean” might be a slogan, if dealing with the refuse, plastic, foam problems.

Additionally and whilst there are far bigger problems, I think it was mainly public criticism that led to the disappearance of the trade in dogs for human consumption. Correct me if I’m wrong. I haven’t thankfully seen pickups with dog-filled cages for years, when once it was a regular thing.

[jackspratt]

Thanks for the link to that excellent article, Brian. It should be a "must read" for all on this forum.

To me, this is the most damning point to appear in it:

In 2018, Credit Suisse reported that 66.9% of the country's wealth belonged to the richest 1%, while the poorest 10% own nothing. Even more striking, the richest 10% of Thais hold a massive 85% of the country's wealth while the poorest 50% hold only 1.7%.

Of course, the people with the money hold the power, and those with money and power rarely want to give either away.

[saint]

Ive said it a million times , well maybe not a million , but a lot .
If this countries injustices are to change , then the education system has to change !
Luckily i do not have kids here , but if i did , the education system would be a constant nagging source of frustration for me .
Luckily , as much as i dislike a lot of social media , and the internet , it is as i see it the only hope for real change in this country .
Now , before i get crucified , with your just a guest , its not your country , blah , blah .
Yes i am , but i also have a Thai wife and extended Thai family, and guess what , it is their country , and they all get as frustrated as myself , with the haves calling the shots , and the have nots having to suck it up , because allegedly its the Thai way .
The days of keeping the masses poor and subservient , to make the rich , even richer , and the power in the hands of the elite , are coming to an end .
I may not live long enough to see it , but these injustices will eventually end , mainly thanks to the younger generation and social media .

[parrot]

Ive said it a million times , well maybe not a million , but a lot .
If this countries injustices are to change , then the education system has to change !
Luckily i do not have kids here , but if i did , the education system would be a constant nagging source of frustration for me .
Luckily , as much as i dislike a lot of social media , and the internet , it is as i see it the only hope for real change in this country .
Now , before i get crucified , with your just a guest , its not your country , blah , blah .
Yes i am , but i also have a Thai wife and extended Thai family, and guess what , it is their country , and they all get as frustrated as myself , with the haves calling the shots , and the have nots having to suck it up , because allegedly its the Thai way .
The days of keeping the masses poor and subservient , to make the rich , even richer , and the power in the hands of the elite , are coming to an end .
I may not live long enough to see it , but these injustices will eventually end , mainly thanks to the younger generation and social media .

I think the Thais put it: "อยู่ไม่เป็น"

[semperfiguy]

I have to laugh when I read things like this. This country has so many faults and problems that it will be years before any radical changes can be made, if ever at all. I have lived here for 9.5 years and I see things getting even worse than before. How can we expect changes from the top down when those on the bottom are not willing to do anything about their dire circumstances? Those at the bottom and even the middle of the food chain can't even be motivated to pick up the garbage from their front yards, let alone gear up for a full fledged revolution. I live in a village that was the talk of the town when I moved here in 2011. Since then it has deteriorated into a perfect embarrassment to every farang that lives here. Our Phu Yai Baan has done absolutely nothing except steal money from the residents and bring disgrace to the family, yet is perfectly happy to parade around the village as if royalty. There are pot holes in the roads, the solar paddle to stir the water in the lake has been turned upside down and floating in the water for months, the lighting poles around the lake have rusted and have fallen down, the pool has been closed and the water turned to a putrid green algae, the sidewalks are caving in, signs around the lake warning of fines for illegal fishing have fallen over and been left flat on the ground, the grass in the common areas grows up to ones knees before it is cut once a month if we're lucky. And, worst of all the street lighting comes on two hours before dark and stays on two hours after daylight, and no one has done anything to correct the problem for over a year. That's 4 hours a day of unnecessary use of electricity worth thousands of Baht that the Tessaban has to pay, yet they turn around and say they have no money to have the grass mowed. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Thais are very content to live in their chaos and squalor, have been for years, and they have no desire to make trouble for anyone, let alone themselves. I don't want to be part of the problem by complaining for the sake of complaining, but it is next to impossible for a farang to be part of the solution here; otherwise, we risk being kicked out of the country, or worse yet, we risk life and limb. This "mae pen rai" attitude and all the misplaced focus on "gaining or losing face" will ultimately lead to their demise as a powerhouse in the region. They're well on their way as I speak!

[AlexO]

That's a bit strong, we all recognise there are problems but if you feel so aggrieved why not just go home???

[tamada]

Thanks for the link to that excellent article, Brian. It should be a "must read" for all on this forum.

To me, this is the most damning point to appear in it:

In 2018, Credit Suisse reported that 66.9% of the country's wealth belonged to the richest 1%, while the poorest 10% own nothing. Even more striking, the richest 10% of Thais hold a massive 85% of the country's wealth while the poorest 50% hold only 1.7%.

Of course, the people with the money hold the power, and those with money and power rarely want to give either away.

And then we have that whiny voiced J.C. blogger yacking about Thai Immigration culling the old geezer herd and claiming old farangs spend way more money here than any Thai people do.

[tamada]

I have to laugh when I read things like this. This country has so many faults and problems that it will be years before any radical changes can be made, if ever at all. I have lived here for 9.5 years and I see things getting even worse than before. How can we expect changes from the top down when those on the bottom are not willing to do anything about their dire circumstances? Those at the bottom and even the middle of the food chain can't even be motivated to pick up the garbage from their front yards, let alone gear up for a full fledged revolution. I live in a village that was the talk of the town when I moved here in 2011. Since then it has deteriorated into a perfect embarrassment to every farang that lives here. Our Phu Yai Baan has done absolutely nothing except steal money from the residents and bring disgrace to the family, yet is perfectly happy to parade around the village as if royalty. There are pot holes in the roads, the solar paddle to stir the water in the lake has been turned upside down and floating in the water for months, the lighting poles around the lake have rusted and have fallen down, the pool has been closed and the water turned to a putrid green algae, the sidewalks are caving in, signs around the lake warning of fines for illegal fishing have fallen over and been left flat on the ground, the grass in the common areas grows up to ones knees before it is cut once a month if we're lucky. And, worst of all the street lighting comes on two hours before dark and stays on two hours after daylight, and no one has done anything to correct the problem for over a year. That's 4 hours a day of unnecessary use of electricity worth thousands of Baht that the Tessaban has to pay, yet they turn around and say they have no money to have the grass mowed. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Thais are very content to live in their chaos and squalor, have been for years, and they have no desire to make trouble for anyone, let alone themselves. I don't want to be part of the problem by complaining for the sake of complaining, but it is next to impossible for a farang to be part of the solution here; otherwise, we risk being kicked out of the country, or worse yet, we risk life and limb. This "mae pen rai" attitude and all the misplaced focus on "gaining or losing face" will ultimately lead to their demise as a powerhouse in the region. They're well on their way as I speak!

Looks like your particular problem is with your Phuyai Bahn and not the grubs that throw their crap on the ground because even if they paid for garbage collection (to the Phuyai Bahn) nothing's going to get picked up anyway. Frustrating I know as it's not so much' where to start'' but more of a 'you must start somewhere'. We used to have great one when we built the pile about 14 years ago and he was old school, well respected and got things sorted while living a very basic and almost ascetic life himself. Attended all the weddings and funerals and ran his civic business from a bench in the mom and pop shop outside his official digs. Huge and very well attended funeral when he popped his clogs with Mrs tam one of the dozens of local women and girls cooking day and night for the mourners and others.

He passes away and the incumbent is the biggest waste of space and all the moobahn agrees. The only people we see lurking around the mom n pop shop next to the house all come in their own, always new cars and are all strangers and not locals. I think I've maybe seen her only twice in the past 5 years. Got the same issue with streetlights where they were all burned out for months before finally they came round... and replaced only 1 of the 2 broken tubes in each one, pleading poverty. They can't afford half a dozen bloody light tubes! Accordingly, the 4th petition for her to stir up the PEA for a bloody transformer languishes.

I argue your claim that the locals are happy 'to live in their chaos and squalor'. That ol' kriangjai tells them that if the Phuyai Banh is a twunt, then that's because it's meant to be. They had a good one before and maybe they'll get a good one some time in the future but in the meantime, nobody's died of low power, ------ drains and potholes. All good things come to those who wait but reading that article in the BP, maybe that's changing. If it does, I hope my family are somewhere else far away and safer as it's not going to be an easy transition. Me? I'll be dead and gone long before any real ---- kicks off here.

[jai yen yen]

I have said it before, a handful of rich and powerful families own and control Thailand and every institution there. I obviously can not elaborate anymore. The one thing I can say is their greed knows no bounds and they will never give up their power. As far as the poor Thais not trying they know if they try they will be beat down or killed so they just try to survive as best they can. Change is a distant dream.

[thaimac]

When it comes to unequal wealth distribution, Thailand is not all that much different than the USA. The richest 10 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 50%, which is over 150,000,000 folks. The top 1%, has more wealth the bottom 90%.

[parrot]

I have to laugh when I read things like this. This country has so many faults and problems that it will be years before any radical changes can be made, if ever at all. I have lived here for 9.5 years and I see things getting even worse than before. How can we expect changes from the top down when those on the bottom are not willing to do anything about their dire circumstances? Those at the bottom and even the middle of the food chain can't even be motivated to pick up the garbage from their front yards, let alone gear up for a full fledged revolution. I live in a village that was the talk of the town when I moved here in 2011. Since then it has deteriorated into a perfect embarrassment to every farang that lives here. Our Phu Yai Baan has done absolutely nothing except steal money from the residents and bring disgrace to the family, yet is perfectly happy to parade around the village as if royalty. There are pot holes in the roads, the solar paddle to stir the water in the lake has been turned upside down and floating in the water for months, the lighting poles around the lake have rusted and have fallen down, the pool has been closed and the water turned to a putrid green algae, the sidewalks are caving in, signs around the lake warning of fines for illegal fishing have fallen over and been left flat on the ground, the grass in the common areas grows up to ones knees before it is cut once a month if we're lucky. And, worst of all the street lighting comes on two hours before dark and stays on two hours after daylight, and no one has done anything to correct the problem for over a year. That's 4 hours a day of unnecessary use of electricity worth thousands of Baht that the Tessaban has to pay, yet they turn around and say they have no money to have the grass mowed. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Thais are very content to live in their chaos and squalor, have been for years, and they have no desire to make trouble for anyone, let alone themselves. I don't want to be part of the problem by complaining for the sake of complaining, but it is next to impossible for a farang to be part of the solution here; otherwise, we risk being kicked out of the country, or worse yet, we risk life and limb. This "mae pen rai" attitude and all the misplaced focus on "gaining or losing face" will ultimately lead to their demise as a powerhouse in the region. They're well on their way as I speak!

Years ago, in First Home subdivision (I believe older than your area) am American (now deceased) took control of the areas security and common area park. He collected the monthly fees......from those who would pay.....and arranged for night time security. He bought a mower from the fees and hired someone to more the park several times a month during the rainy season. He even arranged to have street lights replaced when necessary. I don't think he ever risked being kicked out of the country or risked his life. I haven't been in that area since he died, but he planted 4 live oak trees from seed in the park.....the last time I saw them, they were about 10 feet tall. Probably the only live oak trees in Thailand!

[semperfiguy]

I have to laugh when I read things like this. This country has so many faults and problems that it will be years before any radical changes can be made, if ever at all. I have lived here for 9.5 years and I see things getting even worse than before. How can we expect changes from the top down when those on the bottom are not willing to do anything about their dire circumstances? Those at the bottom and even the middle of the food chain can't even be motivated to pick up the garbage from their front yards, let alone gear up for a full fledged revolution. I live in a village that was the talk of the town when I moved here in 2011. Since then it has deteriorated into a perfect embarrassment to every farang that lives here. Our Phu Yai Baan has done absolutely nothing except steal money from the residents and bring disgrace to the family, yet is perfectly happy to parade around the village as if royalty. There are pot holes in the roads, the solar paddle to stir the water in the lake has been turned upside down and floating in the water for months, the lighting poles around the lake have rusted and have fallen down, the pool has been closed and the water turned to a putrid green algae, the sidewalks are caving in, signs around the lake warning of fines for illegal fishing have fallen over and been left flat on the ground, the grass in the common areas grows up to ones knees before it is cut once a month if we're lucky. And, worst of all the street lighting comes on two hours before dark and stays on two hours after daylight, and no one has done anything to correct the problem for over a year. That's 4 hours a day of unnecessary use of electricity worth thousands of Baht that the Tessaban has to pay, yet they turn around and say they have no money to have the grass mowed. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Thais are very content to live in their chaos and squalor, have been for years, and they have no desire to make trouble for anyone, let alone themselves. I don't want to be part of the problem by complaining for the sake of complaining, but it is next to impossible for a farang to be part of the solution here; otherwise, we risk being kicked out of the country, or worse yet, we risk life and limb. This "mae pen rai" attitude and all the misplaced focus on "gaining or losing face" will ultimately lead to their demise as a powerhouse in the region. They're well on their way as I speak!

Years ago, in First Home subdivision (I believe older than your area) am American (now deceased) took control of the areas security and common area park. He collected the monthly fees......from those who would pay.....and arranged for night time security. He bought a mower from the fees and hired someone to more the park several times a month during the rainy season. He even arranged to have street lights replaced when necessary. I don't think he ever risked being kicked out of the country or risked his life. I haven't been in that area since he died, but he planted 4 live oak trees from seed in the park.....the last time I saw them, they were about 10 feet tall. Probably the only live oak trees in Thailand!

Parrot, in 2010 I lived in First Home during Dale's tenure as head of maintenance. He did an excellent job, but even in the end he started having difficulty collecting fees and getting anything done. I really never asked him how he managed to elevate himself to that position, except he mentioned that no Thais wanted the job. I'm sure back then the Thais were less hostile to us farangs, but I can't see that happening today.

When our village's developer finished selling homes, we had a choice to set up a Home Owner's Association or turn the village over to the Nong Bua Municipality for maintenance. In the end the majority of people voted no to the HOA because they simply refused to pay the measly 400 baht per month that would be required. Since that time the village has continued to deteriorate, and resales and rentals of homes is now virtually non-existent. Sure, the real estate market in Udon is soft right now, but I think our problem has more to do with the village being an eyesore and a much less desirable place to live.

When we were holding resident meetings to gear up for maybe forming the HOA, a small group was being assembled to spearhead the planning, so during one of the meetings with a large group present, volunteers were summoned to step forward and join the group. I popped up and went to the front to volunteer, and some big mouthed policeman stood up, shook his finger at me and with an arrogant and loud hostile tone to his voice made it known that the village didn't need a farang to tell them how to run their business in the village. I truly felt intimidated and threatened, so I politely sat back down and minded my own business. I have observed many such instances since then where we farangs were shouted down for even suggesting that we had a better idea to make things work in the village. Times have changed my friend, and it is advisable to keep your farang head down and under the radar.

[Kenr6583]

Thanks for the link to that excellent article, Brian. It should be a "must read" for all on this forum.

To me, this is the most damning point to appear in it:

In 2018, Credit Suisse reported that 66.9% of the country's wealth belonged to the richest 1%, while the poorest 10% own nothing. Even more striking, the richest 10% of Thais hold a massive 85% of the country's wealth while the poorest 50% hold only 1.7%.

Of course, the people with the money hold the power, and those with money and power rarely want to give either away.

Do you believe, statistically speaking, that the wealth disparity is any different in any developed country?

[Kenr6583]

I hear what everyone is saying here, but is it really any different than Western ideology? What do we tell foreigners here in the United States? Don't bring your religion here. Don't bring your ideology here. Conform to our way of thinking or leave. You weren't born here so your opinion doesn't matter. Agree or disagree with this mentality, it's the same everywhere, and it's sad.

[jai yen yen]

I hear what everyone is saying here, but is it really any different than Western ideology? What do we tell foreigners here in the United States? Don't bring your religion here. Don't bring your ideology here. Conform to our way of thinking or leave. You weren't born here so your opinion doesn't matter. Agree or disagree with this mentality, it's the same everywhere, and it's sad.

Unfortunately for Canadians Canada is not that way, our laws, rights, and culture are bent to appease immigrants.

[jai yen yen]

When it comes to unequal wealth distribution, Thailand is not all that much different than the USA. The richest 10 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 50%, which is over 150,000,000 folks. The top 1%, has more wealth the bottom 90%.

The difference is in the west we have a much better standard of living and the opportunity to improve our lives if we want to. Much harder to do in Thailand.

[Kenr6583]

[quote="jai yen yen" post_id=558982 time=1574615272 user_id=18443]
[quote=thaimac post_id=558929 time=1574574404 user_id=4093]
When it comes to unequal wealth distribution, Thailand is not all that much different than the USA. The richest 10 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 50%, which is over 150,000,000 folks. The top 1%, has more wealth the bottom 90%.
[/quote] The difference is in the west we have a much better standard of living and the opportunity to improve our lives if we want to. Much harder to do in Thailand.
[/quote]

But the reality is you'll still be in the same social standing in either place. It is true in the west there may be more opportunities, but the better standard of living comes at a price. Would your life really be that much improved over where you came from? There's no doubt that the opportunity to be successful in any Southeast Asian country is limited if you didn't come from money, but even based on the statistics from the United States, every country has the same issue. Without poor people there would be no rich people. Without a middle class there would be no economy. If it were any other way it would be considered socialism or communism. I love the fact that Thailand has the standard of living it does. After 50 plus years of always being in the fast lane and dealing with the hustle and bustle of everyday life here, it's reassuring to know that I will have the opportunity to go to a place where everything moves in slow motion.

[jai yen yen]

When it comes to unequal wealth distribution, Thailand is not all that much different than the USA. The richest 10 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 50%, which is over 150,000,000 folks. The top 1%, has more wealth the bottom 90%.

The difference is in the west we have a much better standard of living and the opportunity to improve our lives if we want to. Much harder to do in Thailand.

But the reality is you'll still be in the same social standing in either place. It is true in the west there may be more opportunities, but the better standard of living comes at a price. Would your life really be that much improved over where you came from? There's no doubt that the opportunity to be successful in any Southeast Asian country is limited if you didn't come from money, but even based on the statistics from the United States, every country has the same issue. Without poor people there would be no rich people. Without a middle class there would be no economy. If it were any other way it would be considered socialism or communism. I love the fact that Thailand has the standard of living it does. After 50 plus years of always being in the fast lane and dealing with the hustle and bustle of everyday life here, it's reassuring to know that I will have the opportunity to go to a place where everything moves in slow motion.

Some good points but you really need to live like a poor or average Thai to understand. My Thai wife has been with me in Canada for about 8 years now and thinks she is in heaven. In Thailand life was a constant struggle for her, here she has taken a course to be a Care Aid in a nursing home and is making and saving a lot of money, something she could never do in Thailand. When I first brought her here to Canada she said one of the things she really liked about Canada was that people were nice to her in stores and government offices etc. even though she was nor rich or Hiso. Thailand is fine for Farang with cash in the bank, try it broke.

[Kenr6583]

When it comes to unequal wealth distribution, Thailand is not all that much different than the USA. The richest 10 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 50%, which is over 150,000,000 folks. The top 1%, has more wealth the bottom 90%.

The difference is in the west we have a much better standard of living and the opportunity to improve our lives if we want to. Much harder to do in Thailand.

But the reality is you'll still be in the same social standing in either place. It is true in the west there may be more opportunities, but the better standard of living comes at a price. Would your life really be that much improved over where you came from? There's no doubt that the opportunity to be successful in any Southeast Asian country is limited if you didn't come from money, but even based on the statistics from the United States, every country has the same issue. Without poor people there would be no rich people. Without a middle class there would be no economy. If it were any other way it would be considered socialism or communism. I love the fact that Thailand has the standard of living it does. After 50 plus years of always being in the fast lane and dealing with the hustle and bustle of everyday life here, it's reassuring to know that I will have the opportunity to go to a place where everything moves in slow motion.

Some good points but you really need to live like a poor or average Thai to understand. My Thai wife has been with me in Canada for about 8 years now and thinks she is in heaven. In Thailand life was a constant struggle for her, here she has taken a course to be a Care Aid in a nursing home and is making and saving a lot of money, something she could never do in Thailand. When I first brought her here to Canada she said one of the things she really liked about Canada was that people were nice to her in stores and government offices etc. even though she was nor rich or Hiso. Thailand is fine for Farang with cash in the bank, try it broke.
[/quote

But just because my life is good now does not mean it's always been this way. My way out was by joining the military after high School. After serving in the military in 4 years, I jumped around between a few jobs before I was lucky enough to be hired by the post office. Life has been pretty good since then. In my dealings in Thailand I can honestly say that I have never seen the type of disrespect on the streets on a daily basis that I see here in the United States. I think it's very admirable what you have done for your wife by providing her the opportunity to grow. I guess my point previously was that every country has the same inequality problems and is not regulated to one culture.

[Kenr6583]

Messed that one up