Proper monk behavior? (Monks and BMW's)

[rct]

Today after a wedding in Khon Kaen, we visited the BMW showroom. The only other patron happened to be a monk in his robes, having arrived in a Porsche Cayenne with driver (perhaps a nice citizen loaned it to him?) however what struck me was the monk entered the showroom and was comparing the X3 vs the 5 series, apparently for his own use. He had no interest in the 3 series.

While I realize this may be an anomoly, Is this what some monk's do with the donations meant to support society and those in need? I find it hard to grasp why a monk would need a 4 million baht equivalent of a Camry or Accord. Please enlighten me.

Once back in our car, I mentioned to my wife (almost a WFB after two kids.....) that this calls into question my continued albeit already a bit guarded support of her "making merit" by giving cash at the temples. I'd rather she just cook up some food and take it on occasion.

Hopefully my post does not offend anyone.

[Frankie 1]

This argument has been around since the beginning of times. You can apply your question to any non-profit organization, including religions, sects, etcetera. Some monks, Christian priests and managers of non-profit organizations live like kings.
This was for instance why the Foster Parents Plan organization was heavily criticized some years back and why the Roman church has been criticized already since the beginning of its existence.

Some sects or organizations believe that they are allowed to use part of the donations to live a wealthy life, others disagree.

This monk probably is member of the sect which is in the process of building a spaceship like mountain of golden Buddha statues in central Thailand and owns its own TV station.

I also don't agree with this way of thinking. Remember the Baghwan sect? The Indian sect leader who had a collection of Rolls Royces and used to wear this watch with all those big diamonds?

But in the end, most people who donate money to these people and to these organizations usually know this and still keep donating money to them.

[stattointhailand]

Next time I'm standing in front of the "for Monks only" section of the airport waiting area, I'll mention to the misses that any "PROPER MONK" would walk not get a plane.

Now was it Rib eye steak or Serloin that's best for black eyes?

[Laan Yaa Mo]

When the brother of a very good friend of mine was a monk, he used to leave the temple in the early afternoon to return to his garage and work on cars.

He was only a monk for a few weeks, and has now moved on to bigger and better things. If anyone saw the Nicolas Cage movie, 'Bangkok Dangerous', that is his current line of work. The family has not heard from him in a number of years.

[rct]

Wish to acknowledge the "monks at the airport" sardonic comment.

What little I know after just two decades blending in here, I do believe most monks are revered, deserving and shown special respect in part due to the sacrifices they make living an austere life and helping society. I consistently show extra respect to the monks as well. This thread may help enlighten some of us including yours truly on this concept, to deepen our understanding of the various nuances etc. My apologies if the thread title offends.

+++++
Side note, I know a pious woman from Udon who has a new million Euro house in Hua Hin, and will soon take a group of 9 monks from Udon to Hua Hin for the house blessing ceremony, which I see as a good thing, monks do travel and see the world etc.

[trubrit]

Recently I attended a Katin (Making merit) ceremony at Wat Pha Nong Saen. The senior monk there is very respected, with a huge following of disciples from as far away as Bangkok. You could tell by the number plates of the cars there .
There were monks from another 108 temples, the leader of each was given 10,800bht for his temple from the donations.
I never did find out the significance of the 108 but obviously some religious connection .Towards the end of the day it was announced that 2.7 million baht had been collected and was being donated to the flood disaster campaign .Now as you can see from the photos there were a lot of people there, but so much in just one day? Makes you realise how much these temples can generate .

Now my point in telling you this. At the end of the day everyone was given a further envelope to raise money for the old boy to attend a gathering of monks in India next month .don't know how much was given , but he's going .
This is a strict temple where the monks lead a very pious life, only eating once a day .Yes they do have a pick up for transportation, but not allowed to drive themselves. It was a donation from a follower. Maybe the BMW was, as some of these guys need all the merit they can get. :-"

[parrot]

When the Thai economy tanked in 1997, Wat Ban That had no problem raising hundreds of millions of dollars in donations.......much of it in gold....piles of gold! As best I know, that money was donated back to the government. From there? Who knows!

It's not uncommon for wealthy individuals/families to donate a car/van/tons of supplies to a temple as a way of making merit. I generally have no problems with that....but often wonder whether a Bill Gates/Zuckerberg/Buffet sort of programs would be better for Thai society.

[FrazeeDK]

well then, there's making merit and there's making merit.. You won't find too many Thais going to the temple putting the gold leaf on the back of the Buddha statue (that an old Thai adage). Let's face it, big face making by giving huge gifts to temples and monks has certainly taken away from the simplicity of the religion. I can remember back 38 years ago to what temples looked like in 1973 and what those same temples look like today.. What were formerly very simple teakwood pavillions have evolved into palatial temples with meditation viharns, large enclosing walls, numerous stupas and other rather flashy improvements. My nephew, a monk of over 30 years and a temple abbot did exactly the same with his wat... Of course, the villagers take pride in a nicely fit out wat (nfow perhaps??).. But, when you consider the millions of baht that went into it, wouldn't that money have been better spent in setting up scholarships for kids or funds to help needy families in the village supporting the temple.. the Sangha (Buddhist hierarcy in Thailand) have rules (although obviously not strict) mandating how temples will use and bank donations. While there certainly are some "old school" temples with very strict rules, I'd say your average village wat is a place for traditional practices that supports thai and Issan culture rather than the philosophical tents of Buddhism..
The flashy car gig is more usually seen down around Bangkok.. Years ago, after getting a promotion at work, the wife had me go to make merit at a large temple in Bangkok. the Abbot had a nice Benz with a driver to shuttle him around. Just like many western religions it appears to me that commercialism and the seeking of money and aggrandizing of wats is rampant.

[jackspratt]

While many tourists and short term visitors probably admire what they believe is happening in the Wats (if they can get away from the normal tourist haunts), I imagine most long term stayers understand what a business Buddhism has become in Thailand.

Not much different from Christianity in the west I guess.

[Khun Paul]

Jacks last comment is spot on, too many Monks decide to become monks to avoid lifes' perils in raising a family etc:-/ Tha sad thing is the actions taken by men are applauded even by the women who they are married too, despite those actions mean the family will be poorer and the kids well they just have to manage.

if there was for example a quota of how many Monks a particular WAT could have and the fact that is a man who had a family to support could NOT become a Monk one ,might start to respect these Monks. true some are good and pious and some follow the traditions of Buddism, but these days so many jump on the band-wagon and with the lax rules operated by some WATS bring the system into disrepute.

if this post offends I apologise , but not for my personal thoughts.

[Frankie 1]

I wouldn't say that one way is better than an other way. Just like a village temple is different from a forest temple, it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Some temples serve different functions for different people or different purposes. Similarly there are different types of Buddhism. Japanese Zen is different from Tibettan Buddhism, and this is different from Thai Buddhism. And even in Thailand there are different sects with different approaches to Buddhism.

I don't agree with the way that some Buddhist sects operate, but that doesn't mean that it is bad. In real pure Buddhism, having money and luxury are just other illusions to hold on to and shouldn't be an issue.

In comparison. In Christianity it has long been debated if Jesus owned his own robe, and if that mattered or not. The debate is still going on. And some teachings also have been focused on sin and a guilt-redemption cycle.

What about monks. Does a monk become a saint the day after he is initiated? No, he becomes a student. For most people the Buddhist teachings are a life long learning process. And who are we to judge them for becoming that student?

[rct]

If I perceive my (hard earned) cash donations are helping those in need, makes me happy to give.

If I perceive my (hard earned) cash donations are helping an Isaan monk drive a 4 million baht BMW, makes me unhappy if not unwilling to give, though I would not mind at all seeing him with a 1.6 MB Camry. Maybe that's just me and I may be getting more black eyes.

[rct]

Interesting related story, not a BMW, but rather TWENTY TWO Mercedez Benz! Other articles linked to this monk talk about private jets etc.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/3 ... n-mercedes

*****

Giving a Skylab driver who hit my car, 3000 baht, also linked to my 2011 comments above.

I do respect the general Thai custom of merit making.

[Brian Davis]

I'm not sure that a monk even indulging in the simple pleasure (for those who do) of smoking is really acceptable in Buddhist doctrine, never mind owning decent cars, property or having a healthy bank account.

[FrazeeDK]

"making merit" is a Thai and Buddhist cultural phenomenon. A Thai will "make merit" by giving cash, presents, labor or food to the local wat as that ensures a karmic and spiritual "plus" for them.. They will do this versus perhaps going to a local orphanage or old people's home and donating the same amount of money.. Helping people versus helping the Wat or monks associated with their Buddhist culture earns far less merit..

[rct]

While I prefer to help an individual as I can relate to it better and trust it went to a good cause, and I am no expert on culture or religion here, by making merit at the temple this allows the monks to redistribute the proceeds to those in need.

I can see it with my own eyes, go to the temple at 07h30 and see the locals from all walks of life, wealthy and middle and low, everyone bringing something (mostly food) to make merit. The monks eat some, and redistribute a lot of it to those in need. I find this to be a charming and uplifting experience every time.

[FrazeeDK]

Yes, for those temples who get an abundance of food they're more than willing to share the excess with the poor folk in their neighborhood. That's pretty much a given and costs the temple nothing. But, can you tell me of any temples who perhaps provide funding for poor kids in their areas to go through high school or on to college or donate monies to help a family in dire need?? Again, I think the division is at the cultural/spiritual level in that making merit by giving to the temple is considered far greater than helping out people such as someone with a sick family member..

[trubrit]

Yes, for those temples who get an abundance of food they're more than willing to share the excess with the poor folk in their neighborhood. That's pretty much a given and costs the temple nothing. But, can you tell me of any temples who perhaps provide funding for poor kids in their areas to go through high school or on to college or donate monies to help a family in dire need?? Again, I think the division is at the cultural/spiritual level in that making merit by giving to the temple is considered far greater than helping out people such as someone with a sick family member..

Perhaps you don't realise that many temples in poorer areas are actually the only schooling available to the kids there . When I did my time in the monkhood in a temple just outside Kanchanaburi I spent most of my time, along with other monks, teaching in the school attached to the temple. The aim was to take care in the community not individuals within it.

[phen]

How many houses you can have as a monk in the world?
When you look at this link he has at least 1 house on his own name in Amerika.
http://www.alittlebuddha.com/

[semperfiguy]

I don't presume to be an authority on Buddhism and monk behavior, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and give my assessment based on what my eyes have seen in the past three years. The question I ask myself is "does this form of religion simply masquerade itself as another variety of public welfare for those who would be monks"? In other words...how many of the 61,000 ++ monks have chosen that life because they feel "called" to absolutely sacrifice their life for the good of the community, and how many are traveling that road because they are uneducated, unskilled and are lazy and just looking for a handout and an easy way to "get by in this life". Therein lies the answer to the question of why the behavior of some monks is very suspicious.

With the exception of the more well known temples that attract a lot of tourist and visitors that come from other parts of Thailand, most of them are unkept and in poor repair, and the grounds both inside and outside the walls are littered with garbage and debris. I've never seen the monks doing much of anything except making their morning runs for their food for the day. On special days the followers in the village bring much food into the temple, but in the end it is consumed by the monks and the balance is distributed back to those who have just visited and contributed. Money that is given during times of Tamboon and making merit appears to be going to the building of new statues of Buddha or additions to the infrastructure of the temple, but how much of it is actually being given back to the community as a form of benevolence?

Trust me...I'm trying to be objective here, and I'm sure that I haven't seen all that goes on within the walls of a temple, but what I do see appears to be very dubious at best. Perhaps someone here on the forum can enlighten me!